Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Films, TV, Music, Books, Etc.' started by WickedLiquid, Jan 14, 2010.
Hmmmmm, well Princess Celestine is the victim here. She's the least guilty because she was merely trying to escape the prince from raping her. If she didn't want sex and he was going to consummate the marriage then it's rape. If the prince truly loved her, he would have tried winning over her heart instead of forcing her into marriage. The King ignored her daughter's wishes and allowed this putting him in second place. Which would put the bull in third place for causing her death.
1 Prince Welhelm
2 The King
4. Princess Celstine
People beat themselves up over the mistakes they've made, but that's just how we deal with Guilt. You can argue over who was right and who was wrong, but you can't argue at the fact that she died from the bull.
Yes you can. If we change the outcome to her throwing herself off the ramparts to her death, would you then be saying that gravitational pull is the culprit? Or the architect? Or the Prince's ancestor for setting the castle's location?
Couldn't we blame the farmer for not fencing in his property? Or the Prince again for keeping his home close enough to a bull?
Or take into consideration the concept of manslaughter. You are driving home and a pedestrian runs directly into the path of your car. You can't stop in time and strike him, killing him. Are you now guilty for his death, or is the asshole who just ran into your car guilty?
Sometimes you have to take responsibility for your own actions, even if they lead to your own death. That is why the Princess is the most guilty for killing the princess.
Erm, the bull fucking charged at her with intent to hurt her. Successfully too, nice work Bully. If the bull was a man you'd blame the hell out of him, right? Why is it different just because it's a dumber species?
Yes. My position is that of Free Will. It was the Princess' free will that she ran away from the Prince, it was her free will that had her run into a bull's yard/pen. The bull did not have free will. The bull is a creature of instinct, whose instinct was to charge anything that got near its territory.
Again I submit the following hypothetical situation: your child comes running up to crying because he was stung by a hornet. The reason he was stung by the hornet was because he was throwing rocks at the hornets nest. Do you blame the sting on the hornet or the kid? Yes, the hornet did sting the child, but the hornet never would have stung the child had the child not thrown rocks at its nest.
Likewise yes, the bull did charge the woman, but the woman was there to be charged in the first place. And she was there on her own free will.
I see your point, the bull is just defending itself much like the hornet. But if this was in a court case, the bull would be in jail for multiple years, regardless if he was definding himself or not. And I think that's what Wes was getting at. Look at it any way you want, but the bull killed the princess.
(Obviously bulls dont go to jail, but you see my point!)
The debate isn't who killed the princess, but who is guiltiest of the crime. Yes, the bull killed the princess, we all understand and agree to that. But he isn't guilty of killing her. If he is, then he is guilty of his own nature and unfortunately nature cannot be faulted.
A great real world application of guilt is those idiots who live in Tennessee in areas that get hit by mudslides. Mudslides happen there EVERY YEAR. Almost everyone in America knows this, as every year on the news we find out that mudslides destroy hundreds of homes.
So who is guilty for destroying the homes? Clearly the mudslide destroyed the homes, but do you blame the inanimate mudslide for the act of destruction, the architect, the real estate agent, or the homeowner?
Ok, I shouldn't have stated my opinion as fact. But I believe that saying the princess is most responsible is like saying she pretty much commited suicide. She's guilty for ignoring the signs of danger but it was not her intent to die. The reason she fled was fear of rape like white noise stated. She didn't flee to go off and anger a bull, i just don't see it being her fault.
Ok Ok, clearly were not getting anywhere. Agree to disagree.
Stella? Let's watch some Baywatch instead.
Reminds me I should watch Moulin Rouge again
I wish I saw this earlier....
Well, I guess the point is that we don't know the details of the relationship between the prince and princess, the rules of the kingdom, etc. That actually makes this difficult because it could affect who really is guilty.
Going on gut reactions though, I would argue for the Prince. He was fairly vindictive that he didn't get his own way, forced the marriage upon her by going to the king, and essentially manipulated the situation, in my own mind at least. It was the wrong way to go about things, and whats worse is that he lost the person he loved because of it, which is also a bit ironic if you ask me.
The princess would be next because she was the one who ran off. It was her own fault that she got killed and she is guilty of just doing a stupid move. She could of accepted this, and good for her for not, but her recklessness got her into this predicament.
The king would be next because he was just following protocol for his kingdom. Even if he knew that the prince was doing manipulation on him, there was nothing he could do because of appearances; upholding the law of the kingdom= a strong king. Sometimes it can lead to tragedy, but it is never known unless if they are clairvoyant or something like that. So it is not his fault really, you can argue for it too.
Last is the bull, because let's face it, it's a wild animal and it probably felt threatened as the princess entered her territory, even if she was running away.
it's the government that is guilty. they failed us again!
That was an awesome read guys, thanks for the debate!
Like I said, there are no right or wrong answers, it's all based on your own personal views, I had to go to gameFAQ to find this and share it with you all, lol.
King most Guilty
You believe in free will and the future is determined by the choices we make. Much like the chaos theory; an idea where the actions from something as small as a butterfly flapping it's wings can lead to a Tsunami on the other side of the world, you feel the King set up the chain of events that lead to his daughter's death, making him the most responsible. If the King chose to ignore Royal Protocol and listen to his daughter, she'd still be alive.
Prince Wilhelm most guilty
You feel if he really loved her, Wilhelm wouldn't have forced the marriage. Instead, he would want her to be happy no matter whom she was with. You're a bit on the romantic side and youâ€™re in touch with your emotions. You listen to your heart first and value a loving relationship over a one-night stand of cheap sex. Celestine was innocent in all this and Wilhelm stole her life away by forcing her into marriage
Princess Celestine most guilty
Youâ€™re the type of person who takes responsibility for his or her own actions. If you do something wrong, you take the blame for it instead of trying to pin it on someone else. You feel Celestine was too reckless and didn't put enough thought into her plan on escaping. She was fully aware of the risk she was taking when she saw the sign warning of danger, yet she ignored it. It's her fault for putting her own life at risk
The bull most guilty
You couldn't ignore the facts; the bull was the one who killed her. You believe in fate and everything that happens is already pre-determined and cannot be changed no matter what. The Prince asking for Celestine's hand in marriage, the king agreeing to the wedding, Celestine fleeing, it was all meant to happen. None of them ever had a choice to begin with and in the end, it was fate that killed Celestine.
There you go guys, reading the part on the bull reminds me of the show LOST, lol. When the hell is that coming back? Anyways, do you think that psych profile fits you?
The only way those descriptions could've been better is if they also included something extremely vindictive. Like, "you thought the Princess getting killed was ok? RAPIST!"
But when you have very little of the details and just the main players and key actions, it's left open for personal interpretation which makes it a great party game. Kind of like "the cube", which can be hilarious.
Good one, Wicked!
Wow, I don't believe in fate so that was interesting, lol.
She ignored the warning signs.
Because we don't assign consciousness to bulls, there's no way you can blame it. Blame can only be attributed to conscious beings and things built by conscious beings (e.g. a government, moral/social conventions).
And the fact that the bull represents fate is total bullshit (pun not really intended). Fate can never be attributed to one thing. It's more like the King evaluation where everything (all past events) determine a present situation. The bull representing determinism makes no sense at all.
psychology is mostly bullshitted, but those psycho-analytical tests are fun, aren't they?
1. 2. 3. The type of government system. Arranged marriages = lose/lose.
"Royal protocol insists that he must say yes to the match."
4. The cast of characters. very little information was given about the conversations between prince and princess, also princess and king. so blame is hard to point. also, little details are shown about each characters personality. sometimes persons dont click. the bull was just doing his normal thing.