A matter of faith
- Thread starter Typewriter
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Those who worship false prophets will go to hell and burn.
MikeyVassallo
Regular
TheNesMan said:
Fixed!
Thank me later!
UrbanMasque
Everyone Wears a Mask
I promise free beer for all those who follow me. Plus i'm black, soooo.
maca2kx
Rookie
NjNakedSnake said:
It's atheist. And if you don't think Christians try to force their opinions on others just take a look at Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Bashers and theists on a certain other message board (the address of which I will not divulge here but PM me if you really want to know). Atheists have to justify why they don't believe since many theists refuse to believe that people are capable of being moral without the help of commandments. I'd also appreciate it if you refrain from generalising to all atheists because one or two are requesting you question your beliefs before asserting them so vehemently.
As for evidence of a flood, yes there are numerous reports from several civilisations regarding floods along with geological evidence but it is all for local floods, major civilisations went right through this flood period with no record of anything of the like.
Now *steps into GRandmaster role* don't forget how topics like this usually turn out GR veterans (for the newbies here's a hint, they turn out badly). Keep it civil.
Sam
LinksOcarina
Rookie
This got off topic quick...
NjNakedSnake
Rookie
I never said Theists don't try to force their opinions...
I said athesists try to force theirs more. This is coming from experience, talking to countless people who babble on about the same stuff, "If there is a God, why is there war and murder!" etc. etc. They talk about how it's so unbelievable that there is a higher power that actually controls our lives. From experience, I've come to generalize atheists, I'm sorry, but that's what happens when you hear the same logic fed to you time and time again.
Sorry for my mispelling, I know it was wrong of me. And I can say that I am not one of those theists who feel that an individual can only be "moral with the help of commandments." A person can be a good person, someone who does right, without believing in God or accepting Christ, I know that. I don't feel you need God to be good, or have morals or a conscious. It seems like you've generalized theists with that comment....Although, I assume you're speaking from experience like myself with atheists. Neither sides can ultimately understand each other, so I guess we'll just have to live our lives and wait till we pass to finally know.
I said athesists try to force theirs more. This is coming from experience, talking to countless people who babble on about the same stuff, "If there is a God, why is there war and murder!" etc. etc. They talk about how it's so unbelievable that there is a higher power that actually controls our lives. From experience, I've come to generalize atheists, I'm sorry, but that's what happens when you hear the same logic fed to you time and time again.
Sorry for my mispelling, I know it was wrong of me. And I can say that I am not one of those theists who feel that an individual can only be "moral with the help of commandments." A person can be a good person, someone who does right, without believing in God or accepting Christ, I know that. I don't feel you need God to be good, or have morals or a conscious. It seems like you've generalized theists with that comment....Although, I assume you're speaking from experience like myself with atheists. Neither sides can ultimately understand each other, so I guess we'll just have to live our lives and wait till we pass to finally know.
It's funny, but really that whole thing can work either way. Here is my experience:NjNakedSnake said:
I said theists try to force theirs more. This is coming from experience, talking to countless people who babble on about the same stuff, "If there is a no God, why do we exist!" etc. etc. They talk about how it's so unbelievable that there is no higher power that actually controls our lives. From experience, I've come to generalize theists, I'm sorry, but that's what happens when you hear the same logic fed to you time and time again.
NjNakedSnake
Rookie
Ok....?
And now I guess we've gotten nowhere. Ah well, religion is quite a ponderous subject.
And now I guess we've gotten nowhere. Ah well, religion is quite a ponderous subject.
I took what you said and made few changes to make it relate to me. 
Enigma
Rookie
NjNakedSnake said:
This is how I felt and still feel today at times even though I know longer practice the religion. People tell me I was brainwashed or delusional when I clearly wasn't. I had brain enough about me to reconsider my options. If I had chosen Christianity it would only have meant I felt proof enough or longing enough to stay in the religion. Some people need religion for more than just God too. It's also about friendships, family and community. Some people need to believe in a God because they find there is nothing else left for them. People need God for all sorts of reasons and whether they believe the Christian God or another God, if they find peace in their God, then I think thats a wonderful attribute.
As for religions and atheists forcing their opinions on each other, I'd have to say in my experience its at the same level. So Morons come to your door. So what? So do people selling products. It's their way of "advertising" their "service" to you. And they certainly don't represent all religions or Christian denominations.
If you need hard facts about religion well good for you. If you don't, good for you also. But I certainly don't see any need to force one's opinions on another. Like I said people find all kind's of peace and security through religion or science.
trust_no_one
Rookie
Well, seem I've some into this a bit late, and most of the discussion is between other members, so I'll try direct my post to Typewriters.
I wasn't born into a Christian family, we were introduced to Christianity after I was born. I don't remember the specifics, but a friend of the family got us going to church, and we were regular church-goers for years, but then we began to go less and less, and now it's been years since we've gone. My mother is still a "Christian", I suppose and I think she's the only one in the family.
Back in the day, there'd be a Kid's Club thing for the local religious youth, we'd memorize booklets of Bible verses and the such. Obviously the younger kids would have shorter booklets, with short verses, and the older kids would have bigger booklets, with long verses. In all the years I went to that, I believe I won the award for most verses memorized every year. We'd have to do about a booklet a week, and I'd do it all in one night. For many years, we were quite involved in the religious community.
Now, that's a bit of background, let's get into the good stuff here. Try to explain how Christians, or anyone who is religious for that matter, can maintain their belief, while and convey my own opinions.
I'm gonna try answer some of your questions Typewriter, as a Christian might see it.
That's faith. The foundation for most religions. One does not need "proof" of a deity's existence, they simply have faith, believe it, because that's what the religion teaches. Sure, objectively that sounds absurd, but obviously not so if you're religious. It's not a matter of "if" but simply "is". There is the Bible, and that is, no pun intended, the God's truth. To them, the need to have "proof" of an existence of a deity is just as absurd as us believing something "just because". For some people, having that kind of blind faith is a severe fault, and others it can be an incredible asset.
To have the faith to know God exists without having to ask Him to "show Himself" or "prove" He's real is what being a Christian is. God simply "is". Faith.
That is God's will. Each oh us has our own trials to endure, crosses to bear. Every life has a purpose, whether that life lives to 100 years, or a day, it's part of His plan, and there is reason for it.
People may suffer here, but they can go onto Heaven and live an eternity of bliss. Different degrees of "tests" for each person, one must have faith (again) to believe one can endure, that there is a purpose, and though something terrible has happened, the reason behind it is divine, even if we do not see it ourselves. This life is but a blink, and any pain seen or endured here will be insurmountable to the horrors in Hell, or the euphoria of Heaven, for all eternity. It is not our place to question God's will, only to have faith to believe it was supposed to happen. We are mortal, and are not to know such things.
It is not for Him that one believes, but for the salvation of out eternal souls. He is the only way to eternal happiness, through Him to truly live. We are not imperfect by nature, we were created in God's image, thus perfect, but through Satan and his temptations that we have sinned against God, and that is why we are now born with "original sin". Only through redemption can our souls be saved from the fate of Hell, and that can only be done to accept Christ into our hearts. We need to save ourselves from original sin, or we are doomed to hell. Those who go to hell are thought to have "chosen" to go there, for not believing the Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of all, accepting Him, and allowing Him to give us salvation. No faith in the Lord, not allowing Him into your life and heart, living a righteous life means you have chosen to ignore his gift of Heaven and will therefore be sentenced to Hell. That is free choice, we can choose to live for God, or not., and the consequences of each are clear.
Certainly not, humans have curious minds, and some us strive to have an answer for everything, what we answer it with is an individual decision. Christians believe the answer for a lot of questions is simply God, and that is all they need. Some need more than that. It's up to each of us to decide what we want; to have faith that we can't have all the answers now, or to find a deeper meaning in everything, something that goes beyond God.
Now, by no means am I devout Christian not qualified to answer questions as such, but everything you've read above is what I believe the Christian mind sees. I've tried to answer respectfully so as to not offend anyone of faith here, while still trying to explain for those without. If anything I have said above is incorrect, please say so.
Now, all that aside, let's get to me. I certainly wouldn't consider myself a Christian, by any stretch. Anymore. I don't pray, I don't read the Bible (actually, I never have). I don't think I have any beliefs for any peticular deity per say, but I see nothing wrong with living a good life.
I, for one, will not say I am an atheist and try to convince anyone who is religious to abandon their beliefs, nor will I say I am a Christian and try to convert someone for their eternal salvation. I do believe that there are some people who need religion, and some who don't. I can't say one is right or wrong. It works for some, and not others. For a condemned criminal, or someone whose lost their children and spouse to a drunk driver, it is a lot to ask them to "move on", and for them, they may need religion, to believe, for whatever reason, there was a purpose, that life goes on, and that it will all be better one day.
By the same token, we may have still believed the Earth was flat and we were the center of the universe if some people didn't believe there's more than God out there.
Of all the religions, they mostly promote the same thing; to live a good and pure life. The golden rule. That in itself is not wrong at all, but you need not a God in your life to hold the same core belief system. There always has been some kind of religion, and always will. We've worshiped fire, to animals, to "imaginary" beings, and who knows what the future may hold.
Perhaps the next deity will be someone who has mastered time travel, and can travel back thousands of years to make their presence known preform some type of "miracle", and appears in time every couple hundred of years to ensure that belief lives on.
There will always be people who need something in their lives, have a void that cannot be filled with anything else but a religion. Accept there are things that are out of their control. Just as there will always be people who will question those religions, to keep searching for those answers.
I hope that's answered some of your questions, and helped you see where I'm coming from. If you have any other questions or whatever, feel free.
Oh, and sorry for length, lol.
I wasn't born into a Christian family, we were introduced to Christianity after I was born. I don't remember the specifics, but a friend of the family got us going to church, and we were regular church-goers for years, but then we began to go less and less, and now it's been years since we've gone. My mother is still a "Christian", I suppose and I think she's the only one in the family.
Back in the day, there'd be a Kid's Club thing for the local religious youth, we'd memorize booklets of Bible verses and the such. Obviously the younger kids would have shorter booklets, with short verses, and the older kids would have bigger booklets, with long verses. In all the years I went to that, I believe I won the award for most verses memorized every year. We'd have to do about a booklet a week, and I'd do it all in one night. For many years, we were quite involved in the religious community.
Now, that's a bit of background, let's get into the good stuff here. Try to explain how Christians, or anyone who is religious for that matter, can maintain their belief, while and convey my own opinions.
I'm gonna try answer some of your questions Typewriter, as a Christian might see it.
Typewriter said:
That's faith. The foundation for most religions. One does not need "proof" of a deity's existence, they simply have faith, believe it, because that's what the religion teaches. Sure, objectively that sounds absurd, but obviously not so if you're religious. It's not a matter of "if" but simply "is". There is the Bible, and that is, no pun intended, the God's truth. To them, the need to have "proof" of an existence of a deity is just as absurd as us believing something "just because". For some people, having that kind of blind faith is a severe fault, and others it can be an incredible asset.
To have the faith to know God exists without having to ask Him to "show Himself" or "prove" He's real is what being a Christian is. God simply "is". Faith.
Typewriter said:
That is God's will. Each oh us has our own trials to endure, crosses to bear. Every life has a purpose, whether that life lives to 100 years, or a day, it's part of His plan, and there is reason for it.
People may suffer here, but they can go onto Heaven and live an eternity of bliss. Different degrees of "tests" for each person, one must have faith (again) to believe one can endure, that there is a purpose, and though something terrible has happened, the reason behind it is divine, even if we do not see it ourselves. This life is but a blink, and any pain seen or endured here will be insurmountable to the horrors in Hell, or the euphoria of Heaven, for all eternity. It is not our place to question God's will, only to have faith to believe it was supposed to happen. We are mortal, and are not to know such things.
Typewriter said:
It is not for Him that one believes, but for the salvation of out eternal souls. He is the only way to eternal happiness, through Him to truly live. We are not imperfect by nature, we were created in God's image, thus perfect, but through Satan and his temptations that we have sinned against God, and that is why we are now born with "original sin". Only through redemption can our souls be saved from the fate of Hell, and that can only be done to accept Christ into our hearts. We need to save ourselves from original sin, or we are doomed to hell. Those who go to hell are thought to have "chosen" to go there, for not believing the Lord Jesus Christ is the creator of all, accepting Him, and allowing Him to give us salvation. No faith in the Lord, not allowing Him into your life and heart, living a righteous life means you have chosen to ignore his gift of Heaven and will therefore be sentenced to Hell. That is free choice, we can choose to live for God, or not., and the consequences of each are clear.
Typewriter said:
Certainly not, humans have curious minds, and some us strive to have an answer for everything, what we answer it with is an individual decision. Christians believe the answer for a lot of questions is simply God, and that is all they need. Some need more than that. It's up to each of us to decide what we want; to have faith that we can't have all the answers now, or to find a deeper meaning in everything, something that goes beyond God.
Now, by no means am I devout Christian not qualified to answer questions as such, but everything you've read above is what I believe the Christian mind sees. I've tried to answer respectfully so as to not offend anyone of faith here, while still trying to explain for those without. If anything I have said above is incorrect, please say so.
Now, all that aside, let's get to me. I certainly wouldn't consider myself a Christian, by any stretch. Anymore. I don't pray, I don't read the Bible (actually, I never have). I don't think I have any beliefs for any peticular deity per say, but I see nothing wrong with living a good life.
I, for one, will not say I am an atheist and try to convince anyone who is religious to abandon their beliefs, nor will I say I am a Christian and try to convert someone for their eternal salvation. I do believe that there are some people who need religion, and some who don't. I can't say one is right or wrong. It works for some, and not others. For a condemned criminal, or someone whose lost their children and spouse to a drunk driver, it is a lot to ask them to "move on", and for them, they may need religion, to believe, for whatever reason, there was a purpose, that life goes on, and that it will all be better one day.
By the same token, we may have still believed the Earth was flat and we were the center of the universe if some people didn't believe there's more than God out there.
Of all the religions, they mostly promote the same thing; to live a good and pure life. The golden rule. That in itself is not wrong at all, but you need not a God in your life to hold the same core belief system. There always has been some kind of religion, and always will. We've worshiped fire, to animals, to "imaginary" beings, and who knows what the future may hold.
Perhaps the next deity will be someone who has mastered time travel, and can travel back thousands of years to make their presence known preform some type of "miracle", and appears in time every couple hundred of years to ensure that belief lives on.
There will always be people who need something in their lives, have a void that cannot be filled with anything else but a religion. Accept there are things that are out of their control. Just as there will always be people who will question those religions, to keep searching for those answers.
I hope that's answered some of your questions, and helped you see where I'm coming from. If you have any other questions or whatever, feel free.
Oh, and sorry for length, lol.
DocMoc
Regular
I agree with a lot of what JCD is saying.
The whole God's will thing really bugged me for a time. Having lives suffer being the will of God suggests that God wants these things to happen. I would say that's not true. God does not desire his creation to suffer but undoubtedly it does. But this doesn't give a definitivet answer. More questions arise.
Is it then the place of the creation to question the action/inaction of the creator?
Assuming that God exists, how can we possibly understand, or even comprehend for that matter, the inner workings of life (and afterlife) for all of creation? So you don't understand why there are terrible things like poverty, rape, mass murder, and un-timely death in this world. Tough. It's not our place to understand. I think that to come to the conlussion that God isn't real because of these big questions is not very good logic. It's the same logic in concluding that a hot liquid contains the elements fire and water. They are the same because both conclusions are not based upon all the facts. With matters of creation and a creator, all the facts will never be clear to the creation.
The whole God's will thing really bugged me for a time. Having lives suffer being the will of God suggests that God wants these things to happen. I would say that's not true. God does not desire his creation to suffer but undoubtedly it does. But this doesn't give a definitivet answer. More questions arise.
Is it then the place of the creation to question the action/inaction of the creator?
Assuming that God exists, how can we possibly understand, or even comprehend for that matter, the inner workings of life (and afterlife) for all of creation? So you don't understand why there are terrible things like poverty, rape, mass murder, and un-timely death in this world. Tough. It's not our place to understand. I think that to come to the conlussion that God isn't real because of these big questions is not very good logic. It's the same logic in concluding that a hot liquid contains the elements fire and water. They are the same because both conclusions are not based upon all the facts. With matters of creation and a creator, all the facts will never be clear to the creation.
Typewriter
Rookie
Thanks for clearing up a few things for me, TNO. I guess I can see why there are those who choose to make faith a part of their lives - maybe I'm just one of the others who choose not to. I just could never understand what made one belief system any more valid than another. We as humans have been creating our own gods and our own creation stories to explain how and why we are here for as long as humanity has existed. Nearly every civilization since the beginning of time has formed some system of beliefs, whether it be those of the Native Americans, the Hindus, or the ancient Greeks. Would it be unreasonable to suppose that the very concept of God is an invention of early humans to explain that which couldn't be explained, and that all of the different organized religions of today derive from this tendency for humans to give supernatural explanations to questions far beyond the grasps of their knowledge at the time?
yorky
Veteran
Still Mormon. Although I'm branching out a little. I don't think I would qualify as a "Utah Mormon" at this point. Of course, I doubt very many of you know the difference.
EDIT: About the whole never-ending Hell thing... remember that in the Bible, God is Eternal. Therefore, "Eternal Life" would be life with God. "Eternal Hell," in contrast, could mean life without God. The word "Hell" in and of itself can also take on many meanings, a primary one being merely a spirit world. So basically, it's my belief that a never-ending Hell is an inaccurate interpretation, as is the whole flame-and-brimstone view of it as a place (Christ was merely describing it in metaphoric terms that the people would understand--the whole "Lake of Fire" thing was a title for a location outside of the walls of Jerusalem where the trash of the city would be burned in a pit (or something to this effect)) . I'm open to the possibility that it's not even a place. A state of mind, maybe? I think we've all experienced a little bit of hell in that regard.
EDIT: About the whole never-ending Hell thing... remember that in the Bible, God is Eternal. Therefore, "Eternal Life" would be life with God. "Eternal Hell," in contrast, could mean life without God. The word "Hell" in and of itself can also take on many meanings, a primary one being merely a spirit world. So basically, it's my belief that a never-ending Hell is an inaccurate interpretation, as is the whole flame-and-brimstone view of it as a place (Christ was merely describing it in metaphoric terms that the people would understand--the whole "Lake of Fire" thing was a title for a location outside of the walls of Jerusalem where the trash of the city would be burned in a pit (or something to this effect)) . I'm open to the possibility that it's not even a place. A state of mind, maybe? I think we've all experienced a little bit of hell in that regard.
MikeyVassallo
Regular
TheNesMan said:
The only nerve you struck is that I noticed I could make your statement factual!
