DirectX11 & Mind Altering Substances

[intoTheRain]

http://www.freeonsmash.com/news/2013/02 ... le-stoned/

very interesting test on driving while stoned.

though i personally feel id be much better driving while drunk, than high. im useless when im high, i cant even play video games. everyone is different. i'd like to see them repeat the same test with 1,000 test subjects

 

[Sourdeez]

I get what you are saying but under that logic

"I used to smoke cigarettes a lot, Then I got less of a effect from them, so I decided to try harder drugs"
"I used to drink a lot, then it got boring and I grew a tolerance, so I decided to try harder drugs"

Under that logic the gateway drug is anything you get bored with or a tolerance to. Could even be taken as far with saying a hobby or something you enjoyed was a gateway to drugs.

Which has nothing to do with the inherent properties of the substance. It has to do with the psychology of the individual.


Marijuana does effect people differently but its also important to remember the plant has a lot of medicinal properties other than just for recreational enjoyment.


While i think some people can drive better stoned then drunk. I never advocate drugged or drunk driving. If you gotta drive, wait until your back to smoke. Roadies are unnecessary and dangerous to your freedom and safety.

 

[intoTheRain]

I get what you are saying but under that logic

"I used to smoke cigarettes a lot, Then I got less of a effect from them, so I decided to try harder drugs"
"I used to drink a lot, then it got boring and I grew a tolerance, so I decided to try harder drugs"

those are terrible comparisons, no offense. a) you dont get a high from cigarettes like you do from drugs, you just get a nicotine fix. which is always satisfied by having a cigarette, no matter how much you smoke.

b) pretty much the same thing with drinking, your tolerance grows the more you drink, in that you can drink more, but you can always get just as drunk as you could when you first started drinking in the end.

with pot you get to the point where you can't even really get high anymore, at least not the little school girl LOL at everything high you got when you were first smoking.

i got to the point where i could sit down and smoke a 1/4 of good shit, any way i could imagine lungs/vaporizers/gas masks etc. all the weird shit, i'd burnout and eat a lot. so what happened? i began to crave that buzz i once had because pot wasn't doing it for me like it did before. so i started doing E, coke, mushrooms etc. until i decided shortly after fuck this, im not going down that path and dropped it altogether.

all i did was drink.. and drinking never made me crave doing harder drugs.

i still get just as drunk as i did in highschool if i want to.

 

[Sourdeez]

Cigarettes can be used to give a head change. Its more than just a nicotine fix at first. Infact native Americans have used nicotine as a stimulant and delirant for ages. i can testify to nicotine being used to get me high as I used to smoke them recreationally(Dont anymore). As in smoke one in order to get a head change and leave it alone for a day and this was all before I was needing a "nicotine fix". First cigarette I smoke made me feel fucked up.

And getting drunk changes after you have built a tolerance. You may be able to get drunk but you wont feel the same drunk as you used to and usually its loosing that happy "buzz".

Maybe these drugs don't effect you the same way but my comparisons stand and are not terrible. They are the truth. I understand if they don't exactly fit in with your personal story.

Addiction can be many things and doesn't even have to involve substance use. There is a fine line between being addicted to sports, and just really enjoying them to the point you want to watch them every week. Ive studied a lot of psychology growing up in a home with a sober recovering alcoholic father of 23 years. Ive also talked to many psychologists about addictions. I know it may be hard to understand but my points are still valid and true. Marijuana is not a gateway drug because of inherent properties of the substance itself.

Opiates and other substances can build real chemical dependence but that only comes from prolonged use and is another topic.

 

[intoTheRain]

the drunk buzz never changes. you just need to drink more. i dunno how you can claim otherwise

as for cigarettes you must be very very hard up if you were smoking them for the nasty 10 minute headrush/nausea you feel when youre first smoking (like the first 2-3 cigarettes when you start)

you have never said anything negative about drugs. im all for being into something and if drugs are your thing so be it..but at least be open minded and accepting of the negatives, as well as the positives. or you just look silly. just because pot may not act as a gateway drug for 1 in 20 people does not mean it isnt a gateway drug.

it is. and i love it and have nothing against people who smoke it. just being realistic.

most people start by smoking pot because its basically the most readily accessible and safe drug. pretty much everyone said when they started that i know they would never mess with anything else, pot was just fine. about 99% of those people ended up being wrong.

according to your posts youre some exception to the rule that reacts differently to every substance in order to suit your story. even if thats the case, its not that way for most. marijuana is still a gateway drug.

whether or not you have the willpower to stop it is a different story.

and pot being a gateway drug has 0 to do with otherdrugs creating dependance

 

[Sourdeez]

I disagree. Nothing about the inherent properties of marijuana make it a gateway drug. The psychology of the individual make it their gateway drug for them.

Im a drug nerd. Ive experienced a lot of drugs and I have talked with a lot of experienced drug users. Drugs effect people differently but they effect me close to what everyone else experiences. Its not just to as you say "suit" my "story"

I always spend every day researching different drugs, their effects, and peoples experience on those substances. To blame pot as a gateway drug really is to take personal responsibility away from the user and their psychology.

I have friends who said the same thing. Said they would just try pot. Then try harder stuff. But that doesn't mean pot itself is a gateway drug that drove them to try different drugs. Their psychology lead them to it.
Those same friends said "Im only going to drink alcohol. No illegal drugs"
So by your logic alcohol is their gateway drug as well.

 

[intoTheRain]

I disagree. Nothing about the inherent properties of marijuana make it a gateway drug. The psychology of the individual make it they gateway drug for them.

oh come on.

yea im gonna urge my kids to smoke, cigarettes arent unhealthy, its just peoples genetic makeup that makes them predisposed to lung cancer that kills them. there is nothing wrong with cigarettes themselves.

ill feed them a pound of butter every day when thet get home from school. nothing wrong with butter, just people whos genetic makeup predisposes them to heart disease.

ill give them a gun to carry to school every day. nothing dangerous about guns just certain individuals psychologys that use them.

 

[Sourdeez]

I would never suggest to feed your kids cigarettes. Marijuana has medicinal properties and has even been shown to regress cancer growth. It even is a vascular dilator vs cigs which are a vascular constrictor. Meaning people with asthma can consume marijuana to help open their lungs. And fighting cancer and asthma are only a couple of the multitude of medicinal properties.

or a pound of butter. You should never consume anything to excess. Everything in life with moderation.

nothing dangerous about guns just certain individuals psychologys that use them.

There is nothing wrong with guns in the hands of law abiding citizens.

Im not afraid of the gun im afraid of the person pulling the trigger.
Guns dont kill people on their own. People can use guns to kill people.

 

[intoTheRain]

oh and definitely cant get a better source than an experienced drug user

*tosses in the towel*

 

[Sourdeez]

To anyone interested in researching substances Erowid is an amazing website
Will show you the legality, biological effects, dosages, and give you personal experiences, and practices in harm reduction.

http://www.erowid.org

Its a great website to start with before you really have to dig deep through the internet.

 

[Sightless]

I'm tired.

1) Marijuana is not a gateway drug, and anyone who says that is just a hater. 3) You might know people who have jumped from one to another, but I also know people who haven't ever wanted to. It should be noted that some of this concern also legitimately comes from tainted marijuana, stuff that's been laced with other things, like cocaine.

2) There are studies that suggest that people who are high are actually much safer drivers, because they are mellow and slightly more 'paranoid' I guess you could say; they don't want to do anything too drastic or go too fast. I don't think too heavily on either conclusion of such studies... Although I will say that an important part of driving is expecting everyone to act more or less the same, according to the 'rules' of driving. It's possible the effects of marijuana are negligible overall.

 

[Chris_Crime]

For every X people you know who didn't jump to stronger drugs, I can name Y who did, so let's count heads and see who wins. You're playing into the federal authorities hands with this argument.

Marijuana responsibility is incredibly tough because potheads are notoriously hardheaded about their using, likely because marijuana effects different people in different ways. Because a number of people have it under control doesn't mean that it's not a gateway drug. Leave room for the unknown, which is reasonable. More than reasonable, under the guise of responsible use. This only helps the movement in the end.

And while driving high is much safer than driving drunk, you really shouldn't be driving impaired at all.

The sooner marijuana users begin accepting responsibility for these things, the better. Consider this a compromise. Legalization of marijuana on a state level demonstrates how government can compromise. The only side not compromising thus far are the pro-pot activists. I fear that with each passing vote, each passing windfall victory, the marked point of responsibility is lost because marijuana "is safe, and you should know that by now" is the only message getting across. But make responsibility your spear point, not which red state you'll conquer next, and then you'll be taken seriously by the feds.


I've never heard of the guy who started at cocaine, pills or needles, then jumped to marijuana. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

 

[Sightless]

I don't think pot smokers really throw away all responsibility. What the general population says about pot, though, is pretty much all wrong, so there's a strong backlash. It's hard to see when responsibility is taken in an argument, because it tends to get lost.

I mean to point out that the "I know people who" thing is kind of irrelevant.

Anyway...
The gateway drug theory (I think that's a little strong) suggests that there are drugs that, when taken, lead to the use of harder (more dangerous, more effective) drugs.

When I hear "it doesn't mean it's not a gateway drug", I have to ask, what does it take for it to not be a gateway drug? It seems like a stupid question, but all I mean is that it's starting to seem like people have already committed to the idea, and are just waiting to pounce.

I know this is kinda boring by now, but consider the following:

Nederlanden. Cannabis is decriminalized and readily available there, and yet there are fewer people using harder drugs. Their rates of cannabis consumption are comparable to that of Canada/US, too, so why don't we see the gateway effects of the drug there?

Cocaine isn't the only harder drug out there, but on pot and coke:
More than 72 million Americans have smoked pot, but only 1/120 of those use cocaine.

There's a stronger link between smoking tobacco and cocaine than there is pot and cocaine. (And maybe milk!)

In terms of actual addiction:
There are actual longitudinal studies ongoing that are showing that there is no significant difference in drug abuse between teens who smoke pot and then other drugs, and teens who don't use pot first. So regardless of whether pot was first used or not, the end result is the same.


I really wish we could remove all the presumptions, stigma, and fear surrounding drugs. They're psychoactive substances, and it's just so fucking hard to get an honest look at them when everyone's busy yelling at them with paintbrushes in both hands.

I think this talk about gateway drugs is so sadly misleading. It masks other contributors to substance abuse, and displaces blame onto the drug itself, when really we ought to be examining the context of drugs within our society.

 

[intoTheRain]

More than 72 million Americans have smoked pot, but only 1/120 of those use cocaine.

link to this complete BS statistic?

and even if its true, why is cocaine the only drug that matters?

 

[intoTheRain]

I really wish we could remove all the presumptions, stigma, and fear surrounding drugs. They're psychoactive substances, and it's just so fucking hard to get an honest look at them when everyone's busy yelling at them with paintbrushes in both hands.

yea i'll tell my girlfriends step dad drugs are completely safe and it was just his sons psychological makeup that lead him down a long destructive path of drug abuse, eventually ending in an OD death that drugs are safe, it was just his sons psychology that caused it.

ill also mention it to my brothers best friend, who died of an overdose, that drugs are safe, his friends psychological makeup just killed him. and he wasn't even really a big druggy just a pot smoker that occasionally messed with some stronger drugs.

ill tell my girlfriend that her highschool friend who is now in a wheelchair and cant form a complete sentence after crashing his car on E that it was just his psychological makeup, not the drug that caused it.

i'll tell my best highschool friend who i hadnt seen in 4 years, that the reason he now talks like a retard, and looks like he had a stroke is because of his psychological makeup, not the danger of the drugs that made him that way.

ill tell the girls i was standing beside in the convenience store the other day, half clothed when its -20 outside, with blisters all over their skin looking like zombies that heroin is not dangerous, it's just their psychological makeup that makes it dangerous.

it actually makes me sad i just had 5 stories like this right off the top of my head.

you get the idea.. i understand a lot of your points, and many are valid. but stop trying to pretend drugs are not dangerous just because a very small percentage of the populations psychological makeup makes them immune to the downsides of drugs.

im not even that against drugs, despite what it may seem. what i am against is blatantly ignoring the obvious just because you're not willing to accept both sides of the argument.

you're both literally sitting here pretending there is absolutely no negative aspect to drugs, just the psychology of the people who use them. well since a lot of peoples psychologies end up ruining their lives with drug use, that makes them dangerous. this isnt philosophy class, this is reality.

 

[Sourdeez]

yea i'll tell my girlfriends step dad drugs are completely safe and it was just his sons psychological makeup that lead him down a long destructive path of drug abuse, eventually ending in an OD death that drugs are safe, it was just his sons psychology that caused it.

Your girlfriends brother needed help with a substance. He may have been psychologically drawn to try harder substances. He may have even been chemically addicted after awhile.
Blaming only the substance though is to take personal responsibility away from the individual and their psychology and the effect that substance had interacting with individual and their psychology and physiology.
We also dont know what substance he was using, what purity it was, What he thought his dosage should be. What other substance or pharmaceuticals he was on at the same time.

ill also mention it to my brothers best friend, who died of an overdose, that drugs are safe, his friends psychological makeup just killed him. and he wasn't even really a big druggy just a pot smoker that occasionally messed with some stronger drugs.

You don't have to be a big druggie to OD. Many people without tolerances to heroin for example OD easily. Part of safe responsible drug use is knowing proper dosage, set and setting, and doing your research before you use a substance. Part of harm reduction also means knowing your source and making sure your getting pure substances as adulterants can cause a lot of harm.(Once again regulation and taxation gives quality control)

ill tell my girlfriend that her highschool friend who is now in a wheelchair and cant form a complete sentence after crashing his car on E that it was just his psychological makeup, not the drug that caused it.

This will sound harsh but you should never drive on drugs. This isnt the Es fault its your girlfriends friends. Im not saying you should say that to her face. But its the truth.

i'll tell my best highschool friend who i hadn't seen in 4 years, that the reason he now talks like a retard, and looks like he had a stroke is because of his psychological makeup, not the danger of the drugs that made him that way.

Im not sure what this personal story is or what substance he used but with taking drugs comes some risk and that includes how susceptible the individual is to epilepsy, stroke, heart attack, and other psychological and physiological factors. Id highly recommend him to see a doctor and maybe start on some nootropics or some kind of therapy to help mitigate. A lot of people come out of speech therapy with excellent results.

ill tell the girls i was standing beside in the convenience store the other day, half clothed when its -20 outside, with blisters all over their skin looking like zombies that heroin is not dangerous, it's just their psychological makeup that makes it dangerous.

Im sure if she was on heroin(-20 outside with barely any clothes, its probably meth or bath salts), she knows heroin is bad. She needs to be offered medical help, not just to have people tell her that its bad for her. If she doesn't want help though there is nothing you can do for her.
People get in over their heads. It happens, but to only say its the "heroins" fault is to remove personal responsibility from her.

you're both literally sitting here pretending there is absolutely no negative aspect to drugs

This is not what we are saying. We are saying that some of the dangers are overblown and misunderstood.(Like people thinking marijuana is a gateway drug)
Drugs can be tricky and have intricate interactions with the users psychology and physiology.Some drugs can be very dangerous to the individual(Like bath salts). Its why I advocate safe, responsible, intelligent, educated, substance use. You cant just blame the drug only though, personal responsibility has to be taken by the individual. Is the heroin addict only addicted to heroin because she was born that way? No, she had a psychological draw to want to try it, Then she did and liked it, then she did it for awhile, and then she not only had a psychological addiction but a physiological addiction.

The truth is many recreational drugs can be used very safely while mitigating almost all of the harm. Some drugs are more dangerous to the individual then others. But its up to the user and their personal responsibility to research any substance that they put in their body. If they don't, its just as much the harm of the substances fault as the individual and their psychology.

I get it, you had people you know hurt. But so have I.

Ive had three close friends put in the mental ward from bath salts, Ive had friends end up in jail for simple possession,Ive had friends die from overdose or adulterated substances. Ive had friends die to retarded things only a day after they came to me for advice and they didn't listen to my advice. Its part of what vindicates me to research substances and substance use every day. That way if anyone, even people on this forum, come to me with questions about a substance, I can give them the most educated, well meaning, information on the substance and its proper use.

But Marijuana is not a gateway drug Which is what this topic was about. There is nothing physiologically that makes marijuana addictive or makes you want to try harder substances.

 

[UghRochester]

But Marijuana is not a gateway drug Which is what this topic was about. There is nothing physiologically that makes marijuana addictive or makes you want to try harder substances.

Actually, the topic was about how to store flowers.

 

[intoTheRain]

i should clarify about my brothers friend it wasn't actually an OD. just a drug not mixing well with a genetic defect in his heart.

the rest were spot on though.

i understand its peoples psychology that makes them far more susceptible to OD's, addiction etc.

I personally have always just been able to up and quit anything, or not get involved. i've always had that willpower. i smoked for 6 years steady and quit the day i decided to cold turkey never had one again. this isn't because im stronger than anyone, its just because thats the way my brain is wired and im lucky.

still doesnt change the fact that in the wrong hands, and a LOT of hands, drugs become dangerous due to the individual using them. and at this point we dont have the technology to know who these people that will become alcoholics, or drug abusers will be before they start. which makes them dangerous to many of the people who use them.

i understand what you're getting at, but it doesnt mean they arent dangerous just because they arent to some people.

just as i said earlier, some people could eat a stick of butter for breakfast lunch and dinner and never suffer any side effects because heart disease or whatever simply isn't in their genetic code. does that mean you would tell someone eating a stick of butter 3 times a day isn't dangerous?

same with the cigarettes, same with the guns. guns arent dangerous theyre only dangerous when in the hands of a mentally unstable person.

technically you're right, it isn't the property that is dangerous, but the person, but that's just a sneaky way of a drug fanatic or a gun fanatic or a fast food addict saying what theyre doing is perfectly normal and healthy. in the end it's still the drug, the gun, or the fatty food that did the damage. without them, the shooting, the OD, and the heart attack wouldnt happen.

 

[Sourdeez]

Im sorry to hear about your friends harmed. The stories of our lost friends is what pushes me to expose the illegitimacy of the prohibition system and its misinformation it has spread about substances. That includes the downplaying of the dangers of different pharmaceuticals.

And its great you can just quit a substance. I found cigarettes to be a substance that a lot of people just cant seem to kick. It takes a lot of willpower to quit a substance that causes physiological or psychological addiction. I was on Vicodin and morphine for two months after surgery and oh boy that next month of being clean was hard. Ive quit other physiologically addictive substances. Its not easy, but it can be done, and takes a strong individual to do it. So i commend you.

I was trying to keep the subject to marijuana itself as it has the most medicinal value with no physiological addictive properties. The truth is other drugs can be dangerous and can cause physiological addiction, Any drug can cause psychological addiction but that's not the fault of the drug.

As for the butter analogy, Just like with substance use, I would suggest looking into the physiological state of the individual first. I would never just say "Hey eat tons of butter"
Safe, responsible, educated, substance use. That means considering all factors.

You can be psychologically addicted to fast food. You don't have to have a addictive substance or activity to be a addict. Just saying a substance isnt physiologically addictive doesn't mean you can say your not psychologically addicted to it.


Uh whats wrong with a gun fanatic? A gun fanatic as in someone who likes to collect guns? There is nothing wrong with personal gun collection
The only point in which a gun becomes a problem is when it is used to assault someone outside of life or death self defense.

But Marijuana is not a gateway drug Which is what this topic was about. There is nothing physiologically that makes marijuana addictive or makes you want to try harder substances.

Actually, the topic was about how to store flowers.

Whats in the bag, son?

 

[Chris_Crime]

Maybe gateway is a bad term, but would you agree that marijuana's addictive?

Where's the compromise? There must be some compromise on the marijuana activists part.

Current polls show the general population understands the medicinal need for marijuana, but if it's going to market it's going as a recreational drug and we'll need guidelines for that.
But who's the set those guidelines? There's no corporate responsibility on marijuana's part because there's no industry, there's just small businesses, a political movement and your local dealer. That's even shadier than Big Tobacco, because who do those people answer to? Themselves? So since there's no industry, no Philip Morris or Anheuser-Busch, now's when you have to get out in front of the movement with a responsibility shtick that quell the retirees. and that's all it is, a shtick, because it'll be abused the same way alcohol and every other drug is abused, the same way it's being abused right now.

I'm with intotheRain. I'm not necessarily against marijuana, but taking more responsibility, and all things that come with that, only helps pro-pot in the end. The public has to see the marijuana industry (whatever that is) come out and say that, yes, marijuana is addictive and it can be a gateway drug, but it's no different than alcohol and cigarettes. They can be a gateway drug, too. all the same shit applies.
Otherwise, the only point that gets across to the public is that marijuana's the perfect, safest miracle drug and doesn't harm anyone in any way. The elderly ain't gonna buy that crap, and when it comes to vote they'll show it. So put your best gimmick forward: responsibility.