Obligatory Zimmerman Trial thread [OT] Yes, we're doing this

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^a few news posts I've read said (or claimed) that he had recently been arrested for fighting, had stolen jewelry and a lockpicking kit on him (also arrested for). I was also 17, and petty crime and fighting isn't regular for most 17 year olds i know and knew, black or white. The drug shit shouldn't be a concern, although the "purple drank" shit I've also seen reported sounds a little messed up.

And about the chicago thing; it is mostly gangs, but it's gang warfare brought on by this endless, stupid, and racist "war on drugs." that shit needs to end (look something me and urbs agree on!). There are also a lot of kids caught in the crossfire in a lot of these shootings. Maybe I can find it, but there was an article about a kid trying to organize a party at a YMCA (in chicago) and a few gang members started shit, and ended up braining him with a baseball bat while they where trying to clear the kids out.

The only thing I had read was that he was suspended from school for fighting. I had gotten into a couple of fights in my youth, but we purposely never fought on school grounds to avoid getting in trouble. I was looking on the Smoking Gun and couldn't find anything about him being arrested for stealing, or fighting for that matter.

They had a picture of him flipping off the camera and a picture of him (allegedly) holding a gun. And one more pic of some weed plants. Sounds like your typical young teenage male to me. Except for the gun part. Well, maybe nowadays it is normal since I guess everyone owns a gun now.

And yes, far too many innocent bystanders get caught in gang crossfire here. Even one is too many. But they live in the same area that the gangs are in, so no one cares. I agree that the fabled "War on Drugs" has been a complete and total failure and the sooner the government acknowledges it, the better.
 
Sourdeez said:
Zimmerman was found not guilty.

I was afraid that was going to happen, but not completely surprised. This is the same state that acquitted Casey Anthony, who murdered her daughter, after all.
 
IMO, this is a case about gun law and not race. Stand Your Ground is very ambiguous, and this is just a case where there wasn't enough evidence to convict Zimmerman. A few thoughts though:

- We're talking a lot about Zimmerman's rights, but what about Trayvon's rights? Then again, unfortunately we never got to hear his side of the story
- I said this wasn't about race, although... http://us.cnn.com/2012/05/11/justice/fl ... ar_twitter
- I still don't think this is about race because there's still a ton of black on black violence, and there really hasn't been many voices during this trial coming out and saying that. People are getting super upset about a non-black guy shooting a black guy, but those same voices aren't coming out and saying "we need to stop violence against each other as well". Instead it's been a lot of the blame game, which never works.
- I can't believe the Leafs resigned Bozak, I mean that - oh wait, wrong topic.
- Had he been found guilty, this trial would be solely based on race, and not, in my opinion, the more important issue that you can basically shoot anybody you want. I say anyone you want because fear is irrational, and you cannot create a law that justifies that irrationality.
- Go ahead and riot, see what good that will do
 
Don't really care too much about the trial at this point but still, i'd like to bring some points that a lot of people still don't realize then maybe bring my opinion on this.

First, before zimmerman shot that kid, he was on the ground being beaten by treyvor. One of the reason we keeps bringing the self defense excuse that's causing an uproar. Lots of folks think it's just zimmerman finding an excuse but you know what? I believe him. Just look up his profile picture when he got arrested, all bloodied and bruised and the eyewitnesses who all said the same thing, treyvor was on zimmerman on the ground before he got shot, yelling at him and punching his face in. Another evidence, Treyvor was shot at pointblank in the stomach with the bullet going upward. The only way to reenact that scene is to lay down.
Second, forgot which news media reported that incident first but the arrest pic was HEAVILY edited to make it look like zimmerman came out of the incident unbruised. Everyone bought that, even foreign news. We all got duped during the first month. And while we are at it, Zimmerman didn't run, he turned himself in. He didn't gloat about this either, he actually regretted he shot the poor kid when he was telling the story to the cops. Folks like to exaggerate that part.
And third, Zimmerman said multiple time during his arrest that he didn't know treyvor was a kid. It was dark, Treyvor was taller then him, wore a hoodie and he was being beaten up by him. Can't say he was lying when he claimed there was no way for him to check his age that night. The "Zimmerman shot a kid" was the result of the shooting, not the cause.

So... With all that said, it sounds like Treyvor really went out of line, kid or not, and assaulted the neighborhood watch while Zimmerman seem innocent, right? HECK NO!

When people list what i said up there they forgot some important details. Mainly, that treyvor was sent by his familly that night to pick up groceries/snacks. He had no plan to sneak in people houses that night and most of the houses in that neighborhood had the lights on (most cases of house break-in in suburban areas are spontanious unplanned acts but generally, the robber wait till there are no house lights in the neighborhood before he acts). Yet, Zimmerman, many times before the incident, called authorities and accused the kid of trying to cause crimes. Even though that the time of his first phone call and the time treyvor left his family's home was very short. Why did zimmerman think that? "Because he looked suspicious" he claimed. Yeah not buying it. Treyvor was just walking towards the groceries store and took a detour that night. It was unusual, yes, but it wasn't the first time he walk in that neighborhood.

Which also brings out this tiny important part. This isn't a case of "He shot him cause he's black" Treyvor and zimmerman met before that night. And i am not talking about met on the street. I mean treyvor knew zimmerman's name as he was questioned by the neighborhood watch before the incident, sometimes during the day, some other time in the night. Treyvor knew already that zimmerman was armed, what he looked like and that he patrols those street. Yet that night, he argued with zimmerman and started a brawl. So here's my opinion piece, why? What causes this? Why did zimmerman approached him, questioned him and then made Treyvor act violently?
The autopsy showed no substance in treyvor's body, he wasn't high and he wasn't drunk. There has been reported cases that treyvor had a short temper and got angry easily but there are no records that treyvor has an history of physically assaulting people, not even to strangers or to his close relatives. And yet, all the evidence shows the kid was beating up zimmerman, yelling at him too. So i'm gonna ask again, what happened before the brawl? Was taylor angry at him beforehand (familly and friends did say that trayvor got "Annoyed" by zimmerman's questioning) or did zimmerman harass him to the point he snapped? Maybe the protestors are right and zimmerman, though he is Hispanic (not that i matters really), really has a thing against black people. Still, I don't believe these two guys were villains beforehand but i doubt they were saints either. We might never know. In my neighborhood, i see LOTS of violence. Some cause by 40 years old, some by 16 years old but it's never random. There was always a reason these incident happened and people kept using excuses ("He called me a motherf****er", "He owed me money", "He jumped on me!" etc...). But this case is different from all those downtown brawl. Because zimmerman is an NRA member and has a gun.... and used it exactly like how the gun lobbyist is trying to promote.

And THAT'S the reason people are being fussed. That's the reason why this isn't random downtown shooting at 9 pm on mason street that people ignore everyday. Zimmerman is getting lots of publicity through the media because of his stance on guns. He is that one guy who used the gun in actual gun defense and not a random crime. He is portrayed like a hero to the NRA, the man who "stood up" to the problems in this country like the lobbyists that made the "stand your grounds" into a reality said in the interviews.

Yeah right... People forget the simple picture here. A black 17 years old kid got shot. Could he be a doctor? could he be the next crime lord? We'll never know. It's nothing to celebrate and sadly, it's nothing new. People get shot left and right in this country, people (that Eyebrows and Rakon can't find on google apparently) always protest against violence in the black community and despite all that no one will do a thing because we think this is normal. This case will close and people will forget this happened except for treyvor's familly and Zimmerman who's gonna face his term, be it manslaughter or self defense. The reason why i am giving up on this trial is that we won't care about this in 5 years. That's very, very sad.

When Zimmerman met Trayvor that night, he could of walked away, that kid would of been alive, no protest on the street... and this sucky thread wouldn't of been created. But nope, he had to do more then talk to the cops on the phone, he also had to mistrust them and take the law into his own hands.
 
Trayvon was 17(Where I'm from that's the age of consent and you are considered a young adult under the law.). He was physically bigger than Zimmerman. The media just has old pictures of him though and so people keep seeing this picture of a young kid.(You can debate on if the media did that on purpose.) But Trayvon was actually bigger than Zimmerman.

Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him with Zimmermans head hitting the concrete. The evidence supports it and could be used to reasonable show that Zimmerman was in fear for his life.


Could this whole thing have been avoided if Zimmerman would have listened to the dispatcher that told him to stop following? Of course.
Do I think you should assault someone who is following you? Of Course not.


Trayvon's family can also take Zimmerman to civil court for violated civil rights. It would be cash settlement though, not jail time.


In LA, March for Trayvon Martin takes over streets and encounters gunfire
http://youtu.be/0uhzng_4Q0g

A few pics of "rioting"
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHooZjCMAA1V5U.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHV3iMCMAAWVCZ.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPHzLy5CYAA9lMR.jpg
http://static.prisonplanet.com/p/images ... 3riot1.jpg

Pics of everything else including peaceful protesters.
http://rt.com/usa/us-zimmerman-nationwide-protests-079/
 
Well, I think a lot of it has to do with how you approach someone.

If I walked up to you on the street and said, "Howdy neighbor, how are you tonight? You got a sec to talk?"

You'd probably respond much more favorably than if I had said, "Hey, Hey you. What are you doing here? Why are you on my street?"

It'd be even worse if I lagged behind and followed you without saying a word.

The girl friend of Martin even testified that Martin had called her to tell her about some "creepy ass cracker that is following me." or something along the lines to that effect.

So I don't know about you guys, but if some crazy asshole that I never seen before was following me around, the last thing I'd do is walk directly to my home so the creep now knew exactly where I lived.

And the whole story that GZ was savagely beaten is just complete horseshit. He took a couple of shots, but nowhere near what some people are making it out to be. I've been in a couple of fights when I was younger and have seen fights that ended in under 30 seconds where the loser came out with a face like ground beef. If Martin had been bashing GZ's skull on the pavement like the Defense had shown with that dummy, GZ's skull woulda been cracked open like a pumpkin tossed off a roof onto the street.

What I still have a hard time getting over is what the law in Florida is saying is that I can legally follow, stalk, accost, harass, and confront whoever I want, and if I happen to freak out, scare, or anger any of them enough to physically assault me, then I can just shoot them and claim self defense, even though I was the one seeking out the confrontation. Just makes no sense to me at all.
 
You are correct, the law never says you have the right to assault anyone.

Coming from rural middle America, I understand some people still think you can correct a problem with a little muscle. Or kick someones ass when they deserve it. The law however does not reflect it and if your prosecuted, it is under the law.
 
Yes, but people get into fights all the time.

What the ruling is saying is that if two guys get into a fight in a bar, or in the stands at Soldier Field, or in an alley or backyard somewhere, the one losing the fight can shoot the other and claim self defense, cause he felt his life was in danger.

What about hockey? Fighting is legal there. One guy beats the shit out of another and never gets arrested and booked for assault even though if the same thing happened a few feet away in the stands someone would go to jail. Could the hockey player getting his ass kicked now legally shoot the guy kicking his ass and claim self defense cause his life was in danger?

How exactly can you tell when your life is in danger anyway? Is there a legal definition of it? If a guy cuts me off in traffic and almost causes me to crash, could I shoot him because for a moment I was in fear for my life?
 
Only if the guy was trying to take your life intentionally and you taking his life would have avoided your life being taken.

Some people do get in fights, but not all fights are prosecuted under the law. Some never get reported.

I would assume sports players may sign away the right to charge each other with assault in rough sports. You also show that you both willingly joined a game that you knew you would be rough in. That is a good question though. I will try to get you a better answer.


:edit:Wikipedia Violence in hockey.
The criminal justice system has also been known to investigate, charge, and convict players. As a result, hockey has become much more regulated and the violent element, much more controlled. This has been aided, in no small part, to dramatic increases in disciplinary processes and technology which allows a high level of scrutiny of any event which occurs.



Legal fighting is controlled by the state. All extra-legal fighting is illegal.
You can also get disturbing the peace charges.
 
Well, unless the guy overtly informs you that he is going to take your life, you have no way of knowing what his intentions are. Killing someone because you thought that they could have unintentionally taken your life is just pure speculation

Shooting a guy that has a knife who is walking towards you saying that he is going to cut you ear to ear is a clear cut sign of self defense.

Shooting a guy cause he is kicking your ass in a fight is not so clear cut. How do you know your life is in danger? Did you surrender and the guy kept beating you? Ok, I can see that as self defense then. Did that happen in this case? Not that I know of.

If GZ had said, "Yes, we got into a fight. I was getting hurt and begged Martin to stop assaulting me, but he would not. He continued to beat me until I felt I had no other choice but to shoot him.." Then I would have said, Yes, that is a clear case of self defense.

But all I heard from this case was that Martin got on top of GZ, started to beat him, then GZ just pulls out his gun and shoots him.

Which is why I'm wondering if it is now ok for anyone who starts losing a fight to shoot the guy who is winning and just say their life was in danger and that it was self defense.
 
C_nate said:
Well, unless the guy overtly informs you that he is going to take your life, you have no way of knowing what his intentions are. Killing someone because you thought that they could have unintentionally taken your life is just pure speculation
Well according to zimmermans testimony Trayvon said "you're going to die tonight mother fucker" While he was on top of zimmerman. He also said that Trayvon seen the gun and reached for it.

Now we don't have a recording of this. This is just what Zimmerman said happened.

It's cases like this though that make me think about have a camera recording on my clothes when I leave my house. Nothing beats media evidence. When google glasses becomes as cheap as today's cell phones I imagine we will have a ton of media evidence in our society.

Plus police will have to stop illegally arresting or harassing people for recording them.(Supreme court ruled you have the right to records the police in a public space if you don't physically interfere.) For all you people that have gripes with bad police officers, This will help a lot.
 
True. This is just one of those cases where there was just not enough hard evidence to get a conviction.
 
Here google glasses has already caught video evidence of a arrest on the Jersey shore after a right.
http://youtu.be/4isOSntnpo8

Now will police or the NSA try to use all that video evidence when half our citizens wear cameras? You better believe they will try.
 
C_nate said:
Shooting a guy cause he is kicking your ass in a fight is not so clear cut. How do you know your life is in danger? Did you surrender and the guy kept beating you? Ok, I can see that as self defense then. Did that happen in this case? Not that I know of.

A neighbors 911 call clearly has Zimmerman screaming before the shot, I'm not sure how you view things, but if I'm on top of someone beating them hard enough that the back of their head is bouncing off the concrete (you don't start bleeding from your skull from love taps, no matter how hard you try to convince yourself it wasn't serious) and the guy is screaming bloody murder, I generally consider myself victorious and the fight over

And the sporting analogy may be the dumbest argument ever, by that logic any MMA organization / any gym that has contact sparring needs to be shut down immediately

moreover, and correct me if I'm wrong as I wasn't invested enough to care or watch more than a few trial segments, but Treyvon confronted GZ at his vehicle no? That's what I recall the defense attorney stating anyways, that sure sounds like he was looking for an altercation, more to the point, he called his gf (the one who can't read cursive and can identify the sound of wet grass) but wouldn't call the police? He went to settle things with violence, which admittedly is the exact same thing I would have done, and when has anyone at GR felt my course of action is the appropriate one?

This is the tragic end to a cluster fuck of fuck ups from both parties. But the media has spun it into something so much more, placing racial tones on it, only using a picture of him as a child, despite being months away from the legal drinking age in Quebec.

You can play the blame game all night long, if GZ wasn't a tool this wouldn't have happened, if TM wasn't prone to fits of anger he never would have assaulted him, if those criminals hadn't robbed the houses on the street in the past GZ wouldn't be on edge, if TM was a responsible child who worked hard and saved up for a car he could have driven to the store, if his GZ's parents had of never met TM would have never been shot, it's all pointless, no one set out that night with the intent of assault or murder, quit letting the media trick you into thinking some poor child was viciously murdered. Two less then stellar people ended up in a conflict, happens every day.
 
The tape was played over and over and it was never and could never be determined exactly whose voice it was screaming for help. People for the prosecutors said it was TM, People for the defense said it was GZ. In the end, no on could really tell.

As for the "vicious beating" GZ took, the medical person who examined the photo said the injuries to his face and skull was so minor that it was entirely possible to have come from a single punch and minor impact to the cement. I've hurt myself worse walking into a door.

Dr. Valerie Rao, the Jacksonville-based medical examiner for Duval, Clay and Nassau counties, testified that she has reviewed the evidence in the case.

Zimmerman’s injuries, she says, “were not life threatening… very insignificant.â€
 
UrbanMasque said:
That feel..

..That feel when Plaxico Burress shot himself by accident.. and still went to jail.

I still find this to be absolutely hilarious that he actually managed to shoot himself and go to jail for it.

Now for this case I'm just happy its over because the 95% of people who try to talk about the case are total fucking idiots and know nothing about it while the other 5% who actually know what is going on are arguing with the idiots and the idiots are just layering bullshit on bullshit while the other person can't believe someone is so stupid so all in all what happened sucks but this is the outcome and we got to deal with it. I personally didn't care that much about the trail because both parties are at fault for what happened and so on and so forth but I was just so tired of the stupid arguments people where having about it.
 

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