Is it safe here? or How I Caged My Very Own Nicolas

Discussion in 'General Gaming' started by UrbanMasque, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. C_nate

    C_nate Rookie

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    This is pretty much along the lines of how I was thinking about the situation. The only part I would disagree with was that nothing happened. A couple of sites at least made an attempt to be more transparent about the relationships between their writers and and game devs they might be friends with or donating money to. It isn't much, but it's better than nothing.

    The subject has become so toxic though that it is more or less pointless to keep talking about ethics under anything even closely related to gamergate. It has basically devolved into two sides shouting at each other and any point you try to raise about one thing or the other puts you on one side or the other, if you want to be there or not. Meaningful discussion about the game industry is not going to be found there.

    The one thing I do take exception to is certain places trying to turn "gamer" into a dirty word. (So long Cracked. Done with you. Though they are far from the only ones.) They are trying to frame this as suddenly reddit and 4chan are now the MAJORITY of gamers, when that couldn't possibly be further from the truth.

    Who the hell are they to be able to decide such things?

    Also, because it makes great clickbait, this is all being framed through the lens as male gamers vs females, though it ignores the larger issue of harassment in games. In fact, if you read around different gaming sites before this whole thing blew up, you probably saw more than a few articles on how gaming devs (of all genders) were being harassed more now than ever before. By just focusing on the gender issue, they are ignoring the larger issue that a segment of the gaming community takes its hobby a little too seriously by going apeshit when stuff happens that they don't like.
     
    #101
  2. StudioTan

    StudioTan Regular

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    The same could be said about any facet of entertainment. The popular music industry, for example, isn't about the music you create, but rather, the image you project. The press won't even give an artist the slightest chance if they don't live up to a certain aesthetic. Nevermind the music you play. If you don't wear certain clothes, cultivate a certain hairstyle, or have a certain dance routine, there's almost no chance of gaining any sort of publicity by means of a large company. We vant ze money, Lebowski, not innovation and creativity.
     
    #102
  3. Master_Craig

    Master_Craig Forum Moderator
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    The whole situation is just one gigantic shit storm.

    Like a tornado made of poop.
     
    #103
  4. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    I wanna nominate this dude for some type of award. I'm glad someone is at least trying to sort through all the noise.

    http://youtu.be/_dbi-8rPShE

    Will this train ever stop?
    Dat Brietbart list...

    [​IMG]
     
    #104
  5. Sourdeez

    Sourdeez Rookie

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    #105
  6. Lien

    Lien Rookie

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    ...You guys actually think that internet aristocracy guy, the guy who started the quinnspiracy movement, a guy with an open white supremacy belief that black people are "natural savages" (but assured us he's not "a racist") and the belief that women who get raped are "weak", is actually a reliable source here? Half of the things in that video is made up and falls under the Personal incredulity fallacy. Are you all sinking that low to get approvals for your views on this now? Even you sourdeez falls for it, tu quoque mi fili? Urban made a rant on how he can't talk about this without people labeling him as "misogynist" when he starts posting video made by a grade AA sexist/racist a**hole... I can't even...

    Like If there is one summary people gonna stick with in here, why not seanbaby's quick look back when all this started:
    [​IMG]
    Or Cracked.com's couple of recent articles on the subject behind this movement? (by the way, they do not say anywhere that "gamers" is now a dirty word, just that a lot of them are gullible idiots. C_Nate, I still love you with all my heart but please don't fall for rumors) Or why not Zoe quinn's own guest article? If we keep going to say she's not relevant to the talk's direction anymore, does that mean we are going to start listening to her take on this?
    If not cracked then why not ask what women devs thinks of this talk of "corruption"? (and this from a website that DID change their code of journalistic ethics BTW)
    Or F*** it, why not go old school and just listen to NPR for a quick sum up:
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...roversy-fuels-debate-on-women-and-video-games

    Even dudes who has a career hunting down corruption in tech media think this is all boloney hiding behind misogyny or blind hate for indies! Even employees from Rockstar North, Naughty Dog, Bungie and Ubisoft think that too after they signed a pledge not to agree with hurtful behaviors like this anymore! Heck Moot from 4-chan too and now people are blaming this on his GF! Everyone, and i mean everyone that is a big name in the gaming industry is uniting to stop all this silly talk of "corruption" because they can see a bigger issue happening right now, a hate campaign with no clear goal and no real target hurting small devs. Why they are saying that? Cause they want the community to stop falling for online conspiracies and start supporting them so they can still make games for them no matter the amount of charities this is raising. A community who has a majority who don't want to associate with people who continues to "fight corruption". Continuing the talks is actually making things harder for everyone worth supporting for!
    Longo, i know you believe this whole entire selective gaming press was hurting the consumer before and i *cringed* ...respect you for that. But what we've seen in the past two months is WAY more damaging then this. And the fact that people are pointing out stuff like has been happening yearly for the past decade is starting to be alarming.

    And yes, Urban, your opinion or not, you will be labeled a misogynist IF YOU KEEP POSTING ARTICLES AND VIDS THAT FEATURES IT! This isn't a method to avoid talks, it's a reminder you can easily be a sexist a-hole if you don't sit down and think before you talk just like how this can happen to everyone else in the world (that even includes me, longo, Obama, Putin... everyone in this goddam world!). Don't want to be labeled that? Stop spreading the hate, start actively fighting against it. If not then stop contributing to it when it's being called out. And look into what makes "hate" and what makes "criticism". Dismissing this bad behavior from discussions and falling for paranoia with a higher then thou attitude doesn't make the accusation thrown against you not true nor does it gives you support in your point of view. Don't be a madster.



    Christ, people in here complain that the video game industry is corrupt while i slowly watch the GR forum turning into the escapist forums... This isn't anti corruption talk, this is tribalism at its best. People are starting to entrench themselves so far underground they are becoming mole men! Not even the stan lee/marvel version, the Adult swim version!
    At first i wanted to simply avoid this thread (but sticking around for nic cage pics), but i think i may gonna avoid the GR forum altogether and just stick with staying in touch with the GR authors for gaming news on twitter and facebook and just follow ugh's twitch feed for a little while till things calms down... If it will ever...






    Yo craig? Got a twitter account?
     
    #106
  7. UghRochester

    UghRochester https://www.twitch.tv/ughrochester

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    That's right! I stream and people love it (as soon as they watched). I streamed to Ustream last week, since I haven't in quite some time, and glad Urban approves. Oh damn, I'm in the wrong thread again. My Ugh senses were tingling and had to investigate.
     
    #107
  8. Sourdeez

    Sourdeez Rookie

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    I don't have time to reply to all of your links
    NPR article tries so hard to take the focus away from the ethical problems in journalism.
    This is not about men being afraid of women playing video games with them. Gamers are some of the most socially tolerant people in our society. A majority don't care what your gender is, what your age is, or your sexual preference. We just want to play video games!

    Please stop blindly defending SJWs and women. Please stop calling our forum members bad names and slurs. You don't have to listen to me of course, no one has to listen to me. I have tried to get through to you before.

    The conspiracy is real and no this is not about hating women.


    Because of people like you who will blindly label him as one rather than realizing that a conspiracy involving extremely unethical journalism is actually here and no amount of social manipulation will change that.
     
    #108
  9. Longo_2_guns

    Longo_2_guns Forum Moderator
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    If you're leaving because Urban is a womanizer and Madster is a huge prick, then I guess the question is why did it take this long?

    I can give you a longwinded response if you want, but I'm hung over so let me instead just say that your words, albeit plentiful, aren't falling on deaf ears. I sure as fuck don't want this place to become a circlejerk with one opinion, because I hate those kinds of places. And that's why we need you. Sure we don't always agree, but I still respect you for always saying what you think is right.

    This whole ordeal is a fucking mess, like Craig said. Both sides are full of bullies, and it's created the biggest, most divisive quagmire video games has ever had. Nothing is going to change from it, and I doubt it'll ever really blow over.

    And that's why neutrality is great.
     
    #109
  10. Master_Craig

    Master_Craig Forum Moderator
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    I don't have a Twitter account yet, sorry. Or, I think I might maybe. I'll have to double check!

    Oh crap, it turns out I do have a Twitter account, I just never use it (so I probably should).

    https://twitter.com/Cr33gB
     
    #110
  11. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    Wow i can't believe how wrong i am about everything. My info sources, my world view, my stance on ethics. Lien, your post has given me a major epiphany and has opened my eyes to the real issue here. Sexism in gaming. Of which i am a massive chauvinist contributor. Go home everyone and re evaluate your lives.
     
    #111
  12. C_nate

    C_nate Rookie

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    Sorry, wall of text inc...too tired/lazy to do a tl;dr version

    So I just spent way more time than I am proud to admit reading and re-reading lots of articles, watching videos, almost getting lost following link after link and there was this surreal moment where I had to shake myself out of this stupor that was settling over me and ask myself, "Wait, are we still talking about video games? What the fuck is going on here?"

    First, I'm no big believer in conspiracies, large or small. I'm skeptical (and at times downright cynical) of many things. I know that isn't the best attitude to have, but it was bred out of a lifetime of marketing bs and hype bombarded at me my entire life. So I actually don't buy into this idea that there is some grand conspiracy at work here. Even the smoking gun proof that some places point to, the "secret" mailing list still read to me (the parts that were readable anyway) like people looking to cover their asses so they wouldn't be held responsible for anything.

    The problem with this though is the way they went about it. Most places decided to just blanket silence, delete, and ban anything that even indirectly referenced GG. At the same time they also decided that this was the time that we tell gamers that they are dead, over, and so on. It has to be one of the most idiotic, short-sighted, strategies I've ever witnessed. First of all, it is incredibly arrogant to assume that you have the authority to rename a huge group of people like that. It'd be like if I wrote an article that said calling people who collect stamps, stamp collectors is over and that they are now antique postage enthusiasts. It's absurd.

    When you ban books, you actually give more attention to books. When you ban alcohol, people go out of their way to still get it, and when you stifle discussion about an alleged conspiracy, you actually make it look more like a conspiracy.

    And if you don't think they don't stifle discussion, let me relay a little story about those cracked articles you linked Lien (and before I continue, just let me say I reciprocate your love 100% unconditionally) I used to read cracked semi-regularly and when they started coming out with those articles, I made my way over to their forums because I felt like they were unfairly tarring every gamer with the same brush and I wanted to make the case that picking out the very worst offenders of a community and labeling that as the "majority" of your community was disingenuous at best.

    In that thread someone asked when they didn't write and article about when Jack Thompson got death threats. It was replaced with pictures. Anyone mentioning anything not agreeing with the article was having the posts completely changed to pictures to the amusement of the small army of mods policing the thread. David Wong, who runs the forums was openly boasting about how many page views and comments the zq article was getting, along with openly mocking gg people, even going so far as to say that even if there were good intentioned people who got duped into supporting gamergate, that they deserved to be mocked for being stupid. Wow, how compassionate I thought. Does he also mock old ladies that fall for confidence scams?

    So I start to engage in debate with a few of them, making my case. Amazingly my comments were not instantly edited and I was starting to debate with them. Some of them were outright hostile and others were pretty chippy and one tried to counter my claim of saying portraying a few loud vocal crazies as the majority of a community was wrong, actually told me that even if what I said was true, you still had the judge the whole by the worst 5% of it. I said that was insane logic. Judging any group by its worst 5% is probably the worst thing I think you could do. So after a few posts of debate, David Wong comes back, declares that I'm just trolling and permanently bans me from the forums. He and his site is not interested in this at all. They are only interested in the sensationalistic aspect of it that gives them page views. And it works.

    At no point did I post some frothing diatribe about the game industry, I did not slander anyone, did not float any insane conspiracies, didn't even type a single profanity, and yet was banned permanently. That is the reason this thing keeps going. Because people feel like they are being shut out of the discussion.

    Though on the other side, I thought the whole gamgergate thing was too tied and and unfavorably linked with the mess that spawned it. Too many negative connotations attached to it, so I think gamers should've come up with a different banner to unite under. (Though to be totally honest I think this whole social media hashtag activism thing is so fucking stupid regardless of what it is)

    My own observation is that one side has decided that gg is not open for discussion. To them it means nothing but harassment and that if you support it, you support harassment and nothing is ever that clear-cut, black n white.

    Another article that (if I could remember where I saw it, I would link it) discussed that this is happening now due to politics creeping into games and I found myself agreeing with that. There are people on both sides of this with agendas to push and there are a lot of people in the middle that don't like having one ideology or another forced on them.

    That's the biggest thing for me. After I couldn't stand to read another word on the issue, I rubbed my eyes and let out a heavy sigh. Some of the nastiness being tossed around on both side has just gotten bad. I've seen a lot of the old slurs against gamers being brought up again (we're all basement dwelling, virgin, sociopaths apparently) and I see some of the crazier conspiracies start drifting off into the realm of government space left me shaking my head.

    I finally had to close the browser and get up and away from the computer. I went in the next room and my son was playing Minecraft. I sat down and joined his game and started to build stuff with him. Suddenly, the hours I had wasted reading all the shit was gone from my mind and it reminded me of one of the reasosns I enjoy games so much. They help me forget about all the ugly shit in the world, for at least a little while.

    I can only speak for myself, (different gamers play different games for different reasons) but I play games to have fun and forget about the world, not to have my awareness about social issues raised. I know that may sound selfish, but there are so many other, better, mediums to have that discussion. When and why was it decided that video games was where it needed to be?

    There are plenty of issues that need to be fixed in gaming, and with gamers but moral crusades are not going to do it. It's about winning hearts and minds, not bullying the other side into submission. The latter just creates resentment and we're right back where we started.

    Anway, tl;dr... I actually don't have a tl;dr version, too tired. Gonna go play some games and old man reminisce about when gaming wasn't so complicated.
     
    #112
  13. Sourdeez

    Sourdeez Rookie

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    [​IMG]
     
    #113
  14. C_nate

    C_nate Rookie

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    I have a confession... I think I may be addicted to gamergate. I cannot stop following this. Almost daily a new story about it comes out. It is like watching godzilla destroying a city, the train wreck from super 8, and all the tornado scenes from twister all happening at the same time at the same place.


    [​IMG]
     
    #114
  15. C_nate

    C_nate Rookie

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    Interesting development for those not actively following:

    From: http://adland.tv/adnews/intel-has-g...ising-gamasutra/251869514#ibSHU4efLPhAbRdT.99

    Oh, and...

    [​IMG]
     
    #115
  16. madster111

    madster111 Rookie

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    Good guy Intel
     
    #116
  17. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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  18. C_nate

    C_nate Rookie

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    So is there a gentleman's agreement to not discuss this anymore or has everyone pretty much stopped caring at this point?

    Personally I find it amazing that a week into Oct and this GG thing is still going strong. That and all the twitter meltdowns from so called professionals who seems like they lost their damn mind over this whole thing.

    [​IMG]
     
    #118
  19. Commiebot

    Commiebot Novice

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    I'm still here and care, but mainly I've spent my time following the Twitter tag and continuing to send emails. As for GR as a whole the forums do not seem especially active of late, and those who are active either picked a side or seem to have thrown their hands up because the subject matter is still muddled.

    Reddit and 4chan are actively censoring discussions, someone on the anti-GG side appears to have shut down the Github for compiling email lists, Nvidia is aware of the GG situation and may start pulling ads as well, and Jimmy Wales from Wikipedia seems like he'll either delete the GG wiki page or just keep it in its current state where Cracked is a more valid news source than Forbes.

    There's a lot going on still, but GR doesn't seem to be the place to discuss it.
     
    #119
  20. Master_Craig

    Master_Craig Forum Moderator
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    To be honest, I'm not sure if I've just "stopped caring", or if I just don't want anything to do with the argument. Ironically, I still read this thread as well as people's opinions on the matter.

    Strangely though, both sides of the argument don't upset me, I just take their opinion as it is.
     
    #120

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