Tier Lists

[LinksOcarina]

Since I am on such a VS fighter craze right now, I am just curious as to what you guys think of "Tier Lists"

For those who don't know, a tier list is a ranking of the characters in a fighter game based on their health, speed, abilities, defense, and special moves. Each game has a different criteria in making a tier list, but each game always develops one, mainly due to fans playing it all the time and looking at how the games format.

Tiers usually range from Low tier (the worst characters to play as in competitive fighting.) to a high tier (the very best.) Also, God/broken tiers are sometimes made (characters that are too good, almost unbeatable in the right hands) and are usually banned from competitive play.

So, anyone actually follow this, or even care about them when playing fighting games. It is actually an interesting, user made mechanic, that adds a lot of strategy to fighting games because of the techniques used against specific character, ergo the tier system that compliments that.

 

[Rekkie7]

It's a system that is far more hardcore then I.

 

[used44]

It's cool that it's a community-developed and implemented thing, but it's lame that it's a vs fighter community thing. Because those guys are WAY too hardcore about their games for their own good.

 

[LinksOcarina]

They do the same with RTS's and rhythm games as well.

Hell, Rock Band and Guitar Hero do it automatically for you, ranking the difficulty of the songs. It started in the vs. fighter community and yeah, it is a pretty hardcore crowd, but it's still an interesting part of the gaming world.

 

[Trippysmurf]

The reason the Tier list is flawed is because ultimately anyone can become amazing with any character, even those listed on Bottom Tier.

 

[Rakon]

I agree with Trippy. I've seen people tear it up with Jigglypuff.

 

[schimmel]

I agree with Trippy. I've seen people tear it up with Jigglypuff.

That's because, ranking aside, Jigglypuff is one of the deadliest Pokemon in Smash Bros when placed in the right trainer's hands.

The Official Smash Bros strategy guide actually attempted to rank all the characters based on their stats; this ranking then became very wrong because people figured out how to use the lower ranked characters.

Tiers are cool and all, but ultimately on a fighting game they can be broken.

 

[Tyrranis]

Actually, this reminds me of a story.

A couple of days ago, I was at Uni to pick up a couple of course books for the upcoming semester, and I stopped by the rec. center to see what arcade machines they had.

As it turned out, there was a Guilty Gear X2 Slash machine there. So, being the Guilty Gear fan I was, I played it for a bit.

Now, I had read off of Wikipedia that Ky Kiske, in the transfer from X2 to X2 Slash, had gone from bottom tier to top tier.

Playing the game, I definately noticed a difference. The main example being that in X2, whenever I got up to Sol I normally got my butt whooped and handed back to me, but in Slash I managed to only lose by a rather narrow margin. Twice.

 

[Longo_2_guns]

The reason the Tier list is flawed is because ultimately anyone can become amazing with any character, even those listed on Bottom Tier.

This. The *cough cough* "Professional" Brawl Players rank Capt. Falcon as the WORST character in the game. Even though in brawl he's been nerfed a bit I am outstanding as him.

Of course, the people who make the tiers also play every match with no items on Final Destination as Fox. In short, tiers are for queers.

 

[Grey]

Tier lists tend to be put together by hardcore fans that spend more time studying hit percentages, hit boxes, combos, back stories etc rather than actually playing the game and thanks to this, Tier lists are greatly flawed. Just look at the tier lists for games like SF2WW, UMK3, KOF98... very old games with still hotly debated tier lists. Why? Because they're bollocks. Go along to a tournament and you'll see the guys who actually spend time working on a character that may be considered low tier can still wipe the floor easily.

Ignore the tier lists, pick a character you like, get good with them, have fun.

 

[keepithowitis]

I remember tiers. Back in the days when Mechassault was new and everyone was playing that over Live, I remember I was the only player with any sort of skill with the Arctic Fox. In fact, as some of the beetter players left for newer games, I'd consistently come in first with it, even against much better Mechs (mad cat, atlas, etc).And just now when this was mentioned, I decided to look this up. Arctic Fox was well near the bottom of the few lists that showed up. So obviously, the tiers are based for personal preference. Just like Madden, you may like your home team, or you may like the highest ranked team, but overall, it's neither that ends up being the one I'm best at.I remember killing some kid a little while back, I was the Raiders, and he was the Patriots. Now, the Raiders suck. Terribly. And the Pats are the best team in Madden 08. Another example of tiers being personalized.. therewas a kid who absolutely destroyed me with the Ravens, who I'm horrible as. Once again, it all boils down to personal preference/playing style.

 

[used44]

Yeah, exactly. The whole point of a simple game like a fighter or sports game, is just to jump in there and start having fun.

 

[LinksOcarina]

Personal preference is a part of the lists too, and that's why it's so debated.

In Street Fighter 3, Third Strike, I usually played as Urien and Hugo. Urien is considered high tier,and Hugo is considered medium/low. Both need to be played exactly opposite of what should be done. Urien is an attack beast, Hugo needs patience and a master of the controls to take down opponents. Both have a specific play strategy that makes them effective, and in the right hands tiers don't matter.

But, the tiers also give a base rank of who goes where and who is more likely to win. The higher the tier, the more likely you will win in a competitive tournament. This is why characters like Chun-Li, Makoto, Dudley, Urien, Akuma, Yung, and a few others, in the case of Street Fighter 3, are always usually in the final rounds of a competitive tournament.

But they are always adjusted, which makes tiers a malleable creation. It's more than just HP and statistical stuff, it's also a lot of practice with moves and strategies against other players that determines how useful a character is.

For example, here is what I mean with Hugo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8PQLUXGO3Y

The Hugo guy is one of the best players in the world. His strategy is to soak up some hits, do minor moves and pummel when they get close.

Another example with Makoto, one of the best characters in the game. This video shows how Makoto in the hands of a tourney calibur player can take over a match due to her speed and the strength of her moves, as well as how far her moves go in the game and what effects they may do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNvXP1_7foE

 

[Grey]

But, the tiers also give a base rank of who goes where and who is more likely to win. The higher the tier, the more likely you will win in a competitive tournament. This is why characters like Urien, Dudley, Akuma, Yung, and a few others, in the case of Street Fighter 3, are always usually in the final rounds of a competitive tournament.

Eh? I honestly can't remember a time I last saw any of those characters except Dudley in the finals of a major tournament. For the last five years or so Evo has ended between a Ken and Chun-Li match... which to be honest, was getting boring. :/ In tournaments, everything about tier lists gets shot out of the window.

 

[LinksOcarina]

Thats my point. They are good at figuring out where the characters stand against others, but perfecting the characters is how one can get far in a tournament match.

 

[Grey]

Ah sorry, I thought you were sticking by them. The funniest ones are the Smash Bros Tier Lists, because the differences between characters in Smash Bros vary only slightly, and Smash Bros is an absolute cluster fuck of a fighter when you get more than two people involved and have the items switched on. Its a really fun game, I just don't think I'll ever understand why people keep trying to turn it into a serious fighting game by turning off all the items, having one on one battles and abusing glitches like wave dashing/bouncing etc and then work on tier lists.

 

[LinksOcarina]

I actually took a look at their current list, and apparently Meta Knight is considered unbeatable.

That, I think is bullshit. As a longtime Pikachu player, I have no trouble kicking the snot out of him, or Snake for that matter, who is also considered godlike.

In fact, I only have trouble when i'm fighting Marth, who is also considered high tier as well. The ironic thing is both are in high tier, but Marth is ranked 6 slots higher than Pikachu.

 

[keepithowitis]

It's all personal preference. In the old Smash Bros, (I never had a Gamecube, but my good friend did), and we would always play it whenever I went over and it started raining (a TON in seattle). I was always Roy and he was always Link. And no matter how hard he tried to beat my Roy, I would always win. Then I switched, to Samus. I lost. Mario, I lost, Luigi, I lost. I went through every character, and only a handful minus Roy actually were able to beat my friend's Link. So in essence, I could make a tier list with Roy as the god-like top of the line high tier, and everyone else sharing space at the bottom.

What I'm saying is there will never be an accurate tier unless everyone becomes robots.

 

[Flaming_Tiki_God]

The problem I see in your latest argument, Links, is that the Meta Knight or Snake you're fighting is not being used to its full potential. Meta Knight may actually be unbeatable (I wouldn't really know) in SSBB, but that assumes that the player can use him correctly and with proper skill.

Still, I like to think that tier lists (provided they are true) give slight advantages, but they certainly do not make a match's outcome predictable.

 

[DH_Ninja]

No Metaknight is definently beatable, he's top tier mostly because he's broken as hell. (Instant attacks, easily one of the best recoveries in the game, plenty of kill moves.) In brawl, the game became really unbalanced, which is why i still play Melee mostly. With Tier list, it's basically saying, when a character is played at their full potential, this is how they rank or if both players are of equal skill level, this is how it will play out usually.

Now, this doesn't necessarily mean, I'm Metaknight, your Captain Falcon, I win. What determines a match is player ability not character. *unless your playign someone you've never used before, then it may make a bit of a difference.*