Fight Back For Public Unions Tomorrow in Columbus

Discussion in 'Films, TV, Music, Books, Etc.' started by blobbohen, Feb 28, 2011.

  1. blobbohen

    blobbohen Rookie

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    I'm going to keep throwing these at you, GR, because there's no reason not to. Unions are under attack in Wisconsin and Ohio right now, and they're moving to defend themselves. That said, it's only rational to help them out. Tomorrow, even against grim odds, we're doing a massive protest against Senate Bill 5. Here you go, folks:

    March and Protest against Senate Bill 5, the Union-Busting Bill

    * When: Tuesday, March 1st 10 am - 6:30 pm.

    * Where: Statehouse, 1 Capitol Square, Columbus

    This is effectively a bill that dismantles public unions. Again, I don't know again how many people from this site are actually from Ohio or close to it. But if you are in the Columbus area you've got your chance to do what people all over the world right now are engaging in: taking on their government to create better lives for themselves. That's what is going down in Columbus tomorrow. There would be no middle class without unions and when they suffer pretty much the rest of the non-rich country does as well.

    If you can't go but know somebody in Ohio that you think would care about this let them know. There should be quite a gathering of people assembled tomorrow, and they are fighting for a damn solid purpose.
     
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  2. Green_Lantern

    Green_Lantern Forum Moderator
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    Sigh...


    lolwut
     
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  3. LinksOcarina

    LinksOcarina Rookie

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    Well...he is kinda right....

    And without the unions a teacher like myself would basically have no job, health benefits or chance to move up in my career path.

    That being said I am kinda stuck in New York with no way of getting to Columbus right now....other than vocal support and sever letters to congressmen already sent I can't really do much else to help.
     
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  4. blobbohen

    blobbohen Rookie

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    I'll set you straight, my friend, on how this country existed before people started to organize themselves for a common cause.

    There was no 40-hour work week.

    There were no pensions or healthcare benefits for employees.

    There were no safety standards anywhere- be it a factory, warehouse, or field.

    There were, in short, no rights for the working person at their place of employment.

    When the drive for workers to come together for a single purpose, to unite for a shared goal, the rules at the workplace began to change. Once groups of people started to band together in the 20th century and make demands such as "hey, I'd like to be able to make enough to feed my kids and retire on," the society of America began to change. In short, people actually began to acquire money for themselves and their families to dig their way out of poverty as a middle ground between being dirt poor and filthy rich came into existence. Of course, there were always challenges.

    If an employer didn't like the demands his workers were making he could always look down at them and say "Piss off. Get back to work." Enter the act of striking. Unions, by way of walking off the job, were able to make employers cave to their demands by withholding their labor. No labor meant no work getting done. No work getting done meant no money for the boss. Unless scabs were hired or robots were quickly invented the act of negotiations then took place. Once both parties were satisfied work went back to going down. Thus, the unions of the working people was vital to getting the benefits that are now taken for granted in so many workplaces.

    I could go on all night with the struggles and set-backs of how unions worked to shift the plates of the workplace in America. In the part of Ohio where I'm from the workers in the steel and auto industries still keep their foothold by way of their strong unions. What is going down tomorrow, however, involves the rights of those in public sector unions, such as teachers like LinksOcarina. The fight for their benefits, just like any other part of those in the working class, is a constant one.

    So there you go. There is a reason why unions came into formation, and their existence today is a very relevant one. Do not let anyone inform you otherwise. Setting a benchmark for employees in the private sector as well, unions made having a fair shake in this world that much more possible. It is a simple matter of people banding together to achieve basic goals.

    tl;dr Unions made it so that sweatshops were no longer the sole type of workplace in America.

    If you think I'm wrong take a look at non-unionized corporate workplaces. Notice how there's rarely any benefits at those jobs? There you go. That is because the individual is often powerless to bargain in the workplace. In the end, its strength in numbers that keeps you from being victimized at your job.

    The protest against union-busting tomorrow has a very valid and vital purpose behind it.
     
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  5. Green_Lantern

    Green_Lantern Forum Moderator
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    I have nothing against unions at all...In fact, they are generally a positive to workforces. But considering the middle class began emerging in the 1700s, I don't think without unions there would be no middle class...
     
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  6. Lien

    Lien Rookie

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    Technically, the first unions, sorry.... i meant the first "worker syndicate" actually appeared in the 1700's, before the term "working class" existed yet. But it was after the "glorious revolution" which started the different classes in English society (before it was knaves and lords). Still blobbo's wall of text said it best.
    Not too kill anyone's hope though, the bill did pass... Is there any point in this now?

    And I'm surprise there hasn't been a "Union goon" comment here... Is eyebrows on vacation?
     
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  7. Sightless

    Sightless Rookie

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    WOO PROTESTS!

    Aren't you frightened that by supporting unions, you are bringing communism unto your state, and by extension, your country?

    As an(other) aside, I don't like my union. It takes my money and makes everyone earn too much. It seems culty and restrictive. Also, it made its name a shitty acronym that doesn't really work.
     
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  8. MattAY

    MattAY Forum Moderator
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    Guys!

    Were gonna riot New York because those stupid government dogs have put NY too far from Columbus.

    Meet at my house, 4pm. Bring cake.
    RIOOOOOT!
     
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  9. Eyebrowsbv31

    Eyebrowsbv31 Rookie

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    As stated in the other thread, all the shit you're citing are pvt. unions. This is about public unions. FDR, possibly the patron saint and biggest supporter of unions, did not like the idea of public unions. Pull your collective heads out of your collective asses. This country was built on the backs of pvt. unions, not the public ones. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE.


    Fact of the matter is, it's corrupt just like big business itself. Public unions get paid by the government with tax dollar money, union members pay dues, then the unions work hard to get union-friendly politicians in power. Look at Cali for gods sake. Go ahead and do your stupid and meaningless protests, but the fellow has already said he'd have to lay off about 12 thousands folks if he doesn't get his way. You lost. Get over it.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and- ... ged-class/

    I work for a non-unionized corporate workplace. I have full benefits, regardless of my hours (full or part time, full time is 30+) which are workable and over 20 a week regardless, I get around 60 hours of vacation a year which goes up the longer I'm with the company, I get paid a fair rate (over ten an hour, not being exact), and overall like my job. I also get/got a Personal Wellness account, which is money I can use towards medical bills to help offset the cost of the deductible of the health insurance. After obamacare was passed I can no longer use this card for anything really, but I still have it.

    At my old job, which was unionized, I got paid 7.50 an hour (quarter over minimum), received 16 hours (that's 2 days) of vacation a year, got a nickel raise every year, shifts and hours worked were never stable (usually received 16 hours a week spaced out over 4 days). I got no benefits, no room for advancement, and if I ever almost worked enough hours to get two nickel raises in a year, they'd cut my hours in the last quarter to cut me out of it (no rollover). Oh yeah, after union dues to pay for the benefits I didn't qualify for(because they'd cut my hours so I would not get them), I made about 6.25 an hour after taxes. Fuck unions. It was all about protecting the entrenched, the lazy old guard who did no work and got all the cash. Time and a half on sundays for gods sake, fucking grandfather clauses.

    My father has been working for a union (Ameren Union Electric) for 33 years, and my benefits are better than his, even though I've been with the company for only 4 and some change.
     
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  10. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    Fact. Public/Private - very little difference Eyes
     
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  11. Chris_Crime

    Chris_Crime Rookie

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    There would be no 8 hour workday without unions
     
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  12. Eyebrowsbv31

    Eyebrowsbv31 Rookie

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    yes, all facts, but entirely irrelevant to this conversation. Public unions have nothing to do with pvt industry unions. God's sake people, a pvt union is tied to the business itself, it can only exist if there is a profit, government "public" unions have no need to worry about profits, because the gov. can be seen as an unlimited source of money. Public Unions are wrong.

    "Meticulous attention should be paid to the special relations and obligations of public servants to the public itself and to the Government….The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.â€
     
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  13. blobbohen

    blobbohen Rookie

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    [​IMG]

    There were over 20,000 people at the Columbus statehouse today that disagreed with the idea that they would be just fine without public unions. Turning Ohio into a "right to work" state was something that they didn't seem to want any part of. No final vote went down because the lawmakers were very aware of the crowd awaiting them outside.

    The wages of Ohio firefighters, teachers, policemen, and the public sector in general are not the wages of the filthy rich. They have had to collectively bargain hard and fierce for what they've got and that is exactly what they are threatened with losing if SB5 passes- their ability to use collective bargaining, the primary force of a union.

    Having the option of being able to sit down at the table and negotiate should never be taken away from any union, be it public or private. Forced silence soon breeds chaos.

    Regarding FDR:

    “If I went to work in a factory the first thing I'd do is join a union." ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt

    He scuffled with all kinds of people but in the end he knew how important unions were for the common worker- wherever they came from. So let's avoid the ridiculous notion that somehow public unions are an abomination unto the world. Every other democratic, industrialized country has them and they're not going under. Not by a long shot.

    The battle continues tomorrow and it is going to be a ragged conflict so if you're able to make it out there then go for it.

    If someone is really looking to slash a deficit then you start at the top with the CEO's and tax-dodging corporations, not at the bottom by gutting public unions.

    [​IMG]

    I'm glad to see that one group of people isn't letting themselves get pushed around.
     
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  14. Eyebrowsbv31

    Eyebrowsbv31 Rookie

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    For gods sake Blob, did you read anything?!

    THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT RUN FACTORIES. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A PRIVATE AND PUBLIC UNION. THESE ARE NOT FACTORY WORKERS. GET THAT INTO YOUR THICK STUPID SKULL!!!!!!

    Jesus christ it's like a brick wall made of Sarah Palin. they couldn't make the vote because the democrats, in a wholly cowardly and undemocratic fashion fled the god damn state. Keep in mind the republicans stayed put when the democrats rammed through their previous budgets, because they at least seem to have a sense of honor.

    And if you're bitching about the "filthy rich" why are you defending unions?

    "Of the top 20 biggest givers in federal-level politics over the past 20 years, 10 are unions; just four are corporations. The three biggest public unions gave $171.5 million for the 2010 elections alone, according to The Wall Street Journal. That’s big money."

    You don't watch much global news do you?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Europ ... ebt_crisis

    Gods sake man, you have no sense at all. Unhook yourself from the machine before you hit thirty and realize your life was pointless and empty.
     
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  15. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    I want to stay distant from this debate because I can't separate myself from my personal feelings (apparently neither can Eyebrows).
    -But-
    Both my parents were NYC firefighters, my father retired a Lieutenant, and my mom retired after 20 years on the job - she was stationed in Queens, NY at Engine 314 on 9/11 but was dispatched to Manhattan to help with the recovery effort.. Both were members of the Vulcan Society (International union for black professional firefighters), and my mom was the President of the NYC Chapter.

    NO ONE can deny the benefit of public sector unions for minority applicants - ESPECIALLY given the track record the US had/has with race relations. Also, you'd be hard pressed to argue that unions don't keep salaries competitive across the board (public and private). And thats what Unions are, people banning together to protect their shared interests. Corporations don't need to do that, because they hire lobbyist.

    When you enter the public sector - you basically give up on the opportunity to be a millionaire, because you want to get into a life of public service. So, to be competitive with the private sector and to lure talent into the workforce, the government (which cant match the private sector pricing/salaries gives applicants other incentives). As a reward for your sacrifice the government eases your mind on a few aspects that might concern you in the private sector - but even those benefits needed to be fought for.

    In a production line business enterprise, if you don't make the revenue than you need to survive you redesign your business plan. But the Government is not a Business, it is a service industry - and it is absurd to think, as Repubs do, that because your funding sources (taxes) are dwindling that the gov't is doing something wrong - it doesn't mean that the gov't is in efficient. People move, companies ship cheaper jobs overseas, demographics change, PEOPLE EVADE THE TAX PROCESS, the market changes (internet services),blah blah blah.

    All in all tho:
    Please don't act like this is about the unions purse power, because they have made successions since the recession, and don't act like this will help cure-all budget shortfalls - because it wont. Lets not kid ourselves, this is an attack on the Democratic funding base by the republicans that just took power in those states.

    Eyebrows - you're calling people names and asking us to "unhook ourselves from the machine" - but how do you feel pushing an agenda that: 1) doesn't care about you, 2) doesn't have you ANYWHERE near their best interest, 3) and - to be honest - is UNAMERICAN.
     
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  16. Eyebrowsbv31

    Eyebrowsbv31 Rookie

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    Sorry urbs, I try not to get angry, but I'm a little sick right now, and yelling at blob (i'm calling a "person" names), who refuses to read a word I write except little bits, is really irritating. This is mainly after teachers, and I understand that some people have history. But no one is forced into a public job, and frankly we can't afford it unless we drastically change the system(The bill in Wis. doesn't include firefighters or police, fyi). I too am looking into a life in the public sector or at least teaching, but something has to change; people need to start paying for their pensions and healthcare for a start, and removing the collective bargaining for public unions, which is unsustainable, now may get things back to a good level. Of course with the see-saw nature of politics it all really doesn't matter. I hope you read my experience with unions (I didn't mention nearly losing a thumb and that they made me pay for it) to help understand why I have such disdain for them.

    Also, there are a lot of "rich" public sector people, just as much as pvt., especially when you get higher up. The obamas are millionaires, so are a lot of members of congress. There are a lot of ways to get rich, and you don't have to stay. That is the nature of the system; I mentioned guys getting double pay on sundays just because they had been with the system for a long time; grocery is an industry where people weren't supposed to stay, but they do.

    I disagree with you on the last points you make though. personally, I don't want my government to care about me, that is not what it is there for, so yes, i like an agenda that doesn't care about me. Dependency on the gov. is just plain wrong; In my mind, it is there to maintain defense (police, fire, etc.), manage roads, and assist in major crisis's. I look at some of the things it manages, you see the bloat and corruption, giving them more power is just crazy. The department of education has been a total waste of money, and has done nothing to advance this country, especially African Americans, but that's a dicussion i'd rather have in private.

    Everything is unamerican, because what is American? Disagreeing. I should have made clear in the beginning that I'm not sticking up for major corps, groups, or even republicans; these public unions have major issues that go hand in hand with other big players in our society.

    Everything in this country needs reform, on the left AND the right. Denouncing lobbyists from a major oil company rings shallow to me when it's okay to bail out GM and the United Auto Workers Union so they can keep pensions and pay for doing what is, essentially, a low skill job. Our currant system, way of life, does not work in the modern world sadly.

    Frankly we all don't understand any of this. It's too big of a picture. I understand, completely, why Blob feels the need to protest and all that, but I also understand that it is entirely pointless, and is merely cheer leading for another group that will nail him down the road.

    I'd like to hear more about race relations by the way, especially from you, because I'm doing a lot of research into "black conservatives" and would like to know what you think.
     
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  17. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    1st.. the governments ONLY job is to protect you and your property - because you are on their land. They protect you, you in turn give them legitimacy by partaking in th voting process and agreeing to abide by their laws. ALL other services are luxuries or fall under the umbrella of "protecting" you.
    With what you just said above - how do you feel about Abortion?.. Foster Care?.. Predatory lending?.. Ponzi Schemes?....Slavery? You think its the governments job to Manage roads?!?! thats a huge gov't luxury - they DON'T HAVE TO DO SPIT in that regard. In reality they don't even have to put out the fire in your house - but they are obligated to make sure that the fire in your house doesn't spread to your neighbors due to your negligence. If you don't want your government to care about you - you have several options available.


    Back to the topic - public officials are "well-paid" (President only $400K a year compared to a CEO). And most are already wealthy when they get to that level of gov't. Why? Because you don't want your public officials to be susceptible to corruption. BUT public officials are different from Public Administrators (teachers - cops - fire, city workers, etc).

    I agree, that schools need to redesign their business model. Move more towards web-based courses and reduction of materials (.pdf's, greensheets, kindle, and blah blah blah).

    I wont touch the equality thing, because that will change the tone of this debate, but you have to sense the underlying color issues in this debate (Union vs Corp).
    Everything in the country DOES need reform, or redesign/to be modernized rather - like the education system, but again that doesn't mean it needs to be eliminated. Those pensions were PROMISED contractually to those workers when they decided to make it a career (in whatever industry they were in).

    Black Conservative - Two of the guys I loved to debate in school were the only 2 black guys on the College Republicans at my Christian Brothers University. They had similar stances to your viewpoint, but they weren't nearly as adamant about them. I asked Ricardo WHY would he align himself as a Republican, knowing full well there are certain factions within the party that looked at his as inferior - he basically said that He didn't want to group himself with Democrats because he felt like having a majority minority in one party was a great way to be ignored. Basically when they don't have to fight for your vote they take you for granted. It was the only response I got from a black republican that didn't make me vomit. I can ask him if you want to interview him ( actually he would crush me in debates).

    Well. you know how I feel about protests - And I don't think anything will come of the Wisconsin thing until people start firebombing.The Gov. is just going to delay the process as they wait people out - who need to make a living.
     
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  18. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    1st.. the governments ONLY job is to protect you and your property - because you are on their land. They protect you, you in turn give them legitimacy by partaking in th voting process and agreeing to abide by their laws. ALL other services are luxuries or fall under the umbrella of "protecting" you.
    With what you just said above - how do you feel about Abortion?.. Foster Care?.. Predatory lending?.. Ponzi Schemes?....Slavery? You think its the governments job to Manage roads?!?! thats a huge gov't luxury - they DON'T HAVE TO DO SPIT in that regard. In reality they don't even have to put out the fire in your house - but they are obligated to make sure that the fire in your house doesn't spread to your neighbors due to your negligence. If you don't want your government to care about you - you have several options available.


    Back to the topic - public officials are NOT "well-paid" relative to their responsibilities.(President only $400K a year compared to a CEO). And most are already wealthy when they get to that level of gov't. Why? Because you don't want your public officials to be susceptible to corruption. BUT public officials are different from Public Administrators (teachers - cops - fire, city workers, etc).

    I agree, that schools need to redesign their business model. Move more towards web-based courses and reduction of materials (.pdf's, greensheets, kindle, and blah blah blah).

    I wont touch the equality thing, because that will change the tone of this debate, but you have to sense the underlying color issues in this debate (Union vs Corp).
    Everything in the country DOES need reform, or redesign/to be modernized rather - like the education system, but again that doesn't mean it needs to be eliminated. Those pensions were PROMISED contractually to those workers when they decided to make it a career (in whatever industry they were in). Unions ARE the job market (public and private) - you honestly think the industry will regulate itself? Each according to their worth I guess. YEeaaa, its working so well right now - that Coca-Cola CEO is working 1 million times harder than the plant worker making 30K a year (IN CHINA!).

    Black Conservative - Two of the guys I loved to debate in school were the only 2 black guys on the College Republicans at my Christian Brothers University. They had similar stances to your viewpoint, but they weren't nearly as adamant about them. I asked Ricardo WHY would he align himself as a Republican, knowing full well there are certain factions within the party that looked at his as inferior - he basically said that He didn't want to group himself with Democrats because he felt like having a majority minority in one party was a great way to be ignored. Basically when they don't have to fight for your vote they take you for granted. It was the only response I got from a black republican that didn't make me vomit. I can ask him if you want to interview him ( actually he would crush me in debates).

    Well. you know how I feel about protests - And I don't think anything will come of the Wisconsin thing until people start firebombing.The Gov. is just going to delay the process as they wait people out - who need to make a living.
     
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  19. Eyebrowsbv31

    Eyebrowsbv31 Rookie

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    Abortion should be left to the state, and then the individual. We saw how well the government, as well as independent abortion clinics "managed" the case recently in Philly, by simply ignoring the problem until it exploded into a mess of dead babies and woman. Foster Care was originally done "by the people" as it should be, again, it's not an issue I know a lot about, but judging by the way prisons are run it can't be too nice. Predatory lending, well we saw the outcome of the housing bubble bursting, but that again was the government's fault, particularly barney frank, House republicans in the late nineties, and Bill Clinton.
    Ponzi Schemes, again the government was tipped off on Madoff years ago and they did nothing. Slavery, well that's an entirely different issue; eventually the southern economic way of doing things would have collapsed, because it just didn't work as well as freedom, but that's too big of a subject there, but the government didn't do much until it blew up, I mean originally Lincoln offered to let the south keep their slaves if they made certain concessions.

    And about fires, sometimes they won't put the fire out at your house, unless you pay a fee that they don't really tell you about in some districts.

    And yet that doesn't work out so well, more money keeps flowing it, be it from an oil company or a teacher's union. Again I have to keep using cali, but as the most heavily unionized state it's also the most in the tank educationally, it pretty much is run by public unions.

    And I don't want to touch the equality thing either, but understand that originally unions were created to keep African Americans out of the workforce that whites saw as their own. I'll get you some more info on this asap.

    And if you vomited on any political figure, be it a black republican or not, I congratulate you sir.
     
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  20. UrbanMasque

    UrbanMasque Everyone Wears a Mask

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    So many things wrong with what you said above, but I'm going to bed.

    The firefighters fee is for the Volunteer Fire brigades - Why have Volunteers? Because some gov't know-it-all decided that they could do without stations in their district. So now you have mafia like volunteer fire units holding your township hostage.

    I just wanted to clarify that there is a lot of credibility to be gained by having government backed services.
     
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