Uh-oh! Religion debate!

[Paradox]

nothing seemed to get blood and emotions pumping like a good ol' religion discussion. battlelines are drawn, friendships torn asunder and rivalries formed in blood. get angry and emotional as someone 2,000 miles away disagrees with your opinion!

my stance: atheist. i used to believe when i was younger, but asked a lot of questions no one could answer for me. such as:

noah fit 2 of each animal on the arc? but theres millions of species! the ship would be the size of a small country. and a small crew manned the boat and was caretaker to all those animals? they fed them and disposed of the waste? for millions of animals? theres nothing but water all around. wheres all the food coming from?

as i got older i distanced myself from religion and considered myself agnostic. one day i read a news story of a woman who cut off her baby's arms with a butcher knife. she said it was god's will. that was it. i was done and havent looked back.

if you find comfort in whatever deity you subscribe to, then thats your choice. but personally, i find religions to be a throw back to the days when we didnt know where the sun went when it got dark and prayed it would come back in the morning.

and away we go.

 

[Diabolus]

And yet we all have faith that Pluto isn't a planet anymore, because some over-educated nerd looked at it through the latest magical looking glass.

What's a black hole? Why, someone can tell you, even though nobody has ever fucking seen one!

I sometimes find science to be just as ridiculous as religion.

 

[De-Ting]

Noah took two of every animal in the land. Instead of MILLIONS OF SPECIES, he probably only had a few hundred.

See, Christianity is easy to understand when you don't exaggerate.

Any more questions? I'll do my best.

 

[crazycracker22]

Muslims are the devil.

 

[Longo_2_guns]

I'm personally atheist. I guess I'm technically agnostic, since it's a bit naive to discount the existence of a God entirely, but I don't consider myself agnostic for two reasons. One, because believing that something may be possible is different from believing that it is. It's like saying that it's possible for the Raiders to win the Superbowl this year, which it sort of is, but believing without a doubt that it won't happen. And two, because agnostic has that connotation of "I don't know if there is or not and I'm so confused!" which doesn't apply and is dumb.

However, despite that I love classical Christian mythology. I'm currently reading the Divine Comedy, and it's pretty fucking awesome so far. But I love looking at all the shit most people in the church don't even know about. Like, I can name all seven main archangels and a few other ones, all seven seals required for the Apocalypse, all four horsemen and what they wear/ride/bring, fun shit like that.

Also, I think it deserves mention that the Allah, God, and Yahweh present respectively in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism is all the same being. Meanwhile, Lucifer and Satan are not the same being. Lucifer is the fallen angel who rebelled against God, while Satan is the Devil and the tempter of man. Both are bad, but for different reasons.

 

[Paradox]

What's a black hole? Why, someone can tell you, even though nobody has ever fucking seen one!

i dont see hydrogen atoms either. must not exist. if only there was another way to detect things other than the visible spectrum...

Noah took two of every animal in the land. Instead of MILLIONS OF SPECIES, he probably only had a few hundred.

ok, i admit i exaggerated. lets focus just on the primary land animals, mammals and reptiles, which combined number about 13,000 different species. that times two on a ship that (supposedly) measured 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high?

 

[De-Ting]

Lucifer and Satan are not the same being. Lucifer is the fallen angel who rebelled against God, while Satan is the Devil and the tempter of man. Both are bad, but for different reasons.

They are actually the same.

Lucifer said he would become the Christ, force everyone to do what's right, and the glory would be his, taking away our free will and ability to grow, or "agency" if you're Mormon.

Of course, his plan was rejected. He was exiled from heaven, along with his followers, and become the Devil, the Father of All Lies. He became the tempter of man, which was necessary, as was the Fall of Adam. There can be no good if there is no evil.

I believe that explains it well enough.

 

[Lien]

Man... I thought i this was going to be about Buddhism, Tao, Hindu and paganism... But in the end, this is still another Christian/Islam topic... Can we do LDS for once? we rock!

Here, let me save you guys time and insult both christian and atheist: Did you know Hither was atheist and Mussolini Catholic? And that Washington was protestant and Lincoln Agnostic? *gasp*

 

[De-Ting]

ok, i admit i exaggerated. lets focus just on the primary land animals, mammals and reptiles, which combined number about 13,000 different species. that times two on a ship that (supposedly) measured 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high?

Well the point I was trying to make is nobody can put an exact number on it, not without some serious archeological research to find out what animals inhabited his home land, at least.

 

[Diabolus]

What's a black hole? Why, someone can tell you, even though nobody has ever fucking seen one!

i dont see hydrogen atoms either. must not exist. if only there was another way to detect things other than the visible spectrum...

I don't see the relevance. They are all around us, not trillions of miles away. Scientists can actively manipulate things found under a microscope. But you go, girl!

 

[Longo_2_guns]

They are actually the same.

Lucifer said he would become the Christ, force everyone to do what's right, and the glory would be his, taking away our free will and ability to grow, or "agency" if you're Mormon.

Of course, his plan was rejected. He was exiled from heaven, along with his followers, and become the Devil, the Father of All Lies. He became the tempter of man, which was necessary, as was the Fall of Adam. There can be no good if there is no evil.

I believe that explains it well enough.

While there is a point there, it's still possible to make the distinction between the two. Basically, it begs the question of why the being who in his eyes wishes to save humanity (though I've never heard of him referring to himself as the Christ since Christ didn't really exist) would immediately shift to tricking mankind to do essentially the opposite of what he wished them to do and then torturing all the souls who get sent to Hell.

Basically, everything up until the exile is Lucifer. Everything after is Satan. Lucifer goes against God due to there differing beliefs on the salvation of man, while Satan is another story altogether. After being forced/refusing to bow before Adam, Satan was enraged that God held humanity at a higher regard than the angels/archangels, and took it upon himself to trick mankind to prove that they are inferior to the angels, or something along those lines.

 

[De-Ting]

It's so simple to me, sorry. Let me go further...

Lucifer's intentions weren't pure. As I said, his plan meant taking away the free will of men, which went directly against God's plan. It may sound like a good idea, which is how he convinced 1/3 of heaven to follow him, but in truth, God saw his intentions. He actually wanted to enslave mankind, not save it, as it might initially come across. So Lucifer became Satan. He didn't cease to exist, as to what is sounds like you're saying.

That is when Jesus rose and said he would go and become the Lamb of God, therefore man would have the choice between good and evil, and his atonement would be the means of forgiveness, since he was a perfect sacrifice. Yes, Christ and God are two separate beings, although their glory is equal.

What altered version of the bible are you reading, Longo? Seriously. "Bow before Adam"? Satan tempted Eve to partake of the Forbidden Fruit, which lead to the Fall. What are you talking about?

Bret also pointed out to me that most of this knowledge comes from the Pearl of Great Price in the Book of Mormon, the books of Abraham and Moses. You should read them, if I'm stumping you here. Otherwise, refer to Revelation 12:7.

 

[Longo_2_guns]

Apparently not the Book of Mormon. Still, that's an interesting way of looking at it. The one thing that bugs me about that is even in the strictest teachings there would still be a good 4,000 years in between Adam and Jesus.

Still, in both the Old and New Testaments there's little connection between Lucifer and Satan. In fact, there's almost nothing stating Lucifer's existence at all. Really, there's a passage in Isaiah which references "morning star," which is a translation of the word helel, which is another name for Lucifer considering that's sort of what the translation from Hebrew to Latin is. Although, even then it wasn't until the KJV that the connection was made between Lucifer here and Satan.

And besides that, there's little definitive proof. I mean, there's Paradise Lost, but even then he only refers to Lucifer like twice and it wasn't very good in the first place. Plus, it came out after the KJV, so again, who knows.

And I never said that Lucifer ceased to exist, nor did I imply it. He does lose the war, and after which he mostly bides his time. Although I did make a mistake about Satan. It's only in Islamic texts that he does not bow before Adam, but the pride that he holds of his superiority exists in all versions.

 

[De-Ting]

He just became known by a different name. Lucifer means "Son of the Morning," but as he rebelled, it obviously didn't suit him any longer. He became known as the Devil, or Satan, the Father of All Lies.

Just as Jacob became Israel, and Abram became Abraham, Lucifer became Satan.

 

[piracer]

going back to Noah's Arc, can i just remind everyone that the story is based of the Great Flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh, probably about 2500 years before Noah's Arc occurred...

 

[De-Ting]

going back to Noah's Arc, can i just remind everyone that the story is based of the Great Flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh, probably about 2500 years before Noah's Arc occurred...

...What? That doesn't even make sense. <_<

 

[I_Hate_MGS]

Can we do LDS for once? we rock!

rofl lies

 

[De-Ting]

Can we do LDS for once? we rock!

rofl lies

I'm sorry you think that...let me get you a pillow while you're down there.

 

[Eyebrowsbv31]

going back to Noah's Arc, can i just remind everyone that the story is based of the Great Flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh, probably about 2500 years before Noah's Arc occurred...

...What? That doesn't even make sense. <_<

Many ancient groups have a flood story. Floods happen, wipe things out. You can find one in just about each culture.


Also, I have no love for mormonism. Only thing worse is scientology. Both crackpot religions that mislead people and subjugate women.

 

[Wes]

If we want to have a religous debate, let's do it right.

Everyone is 100% wrong and I am 100% right.
Now shut up.