I had no idea girls played games..

[GRColin]

Oh look, people arguing stuff they know so little about.

No offense guys, we know gratuitous sex is terrible, and we know the culture at large is stupid. Arguing it on here doesn't change a damn thing.

Oh look, Links coming in sounding condescending. Kind of out of character for you no?

No offense Links, but just because we know it exits doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed. Also, coming in claiming they know nothing of the matter then not offering any enlightenment or education, just saying arguing about it is pointless kind of makes your post pointless.

 

[LinksOcarina]

Here is why you are wrong Lethan.

The problem is not the fact that the booth babes exist. The problem is that its not the problem at all The structure within is. What I mean by that is the landscape of the culture that is mostly accustomed to stuff like booth babes and gratuity via sexual imagery. It's a good ole boys club, and guess whose still in charge basically.

See, I have yet to see anything in this thread so far, outside of the typical cursory glances regarding the issue to help prove a point that's actually worth discussing. We got the typical responses from both camps regarding why its wrong or why its tolerated, and the issue is both are right. It's a meaningless argument because of that. Hell, the only thing substantial I didn't know about was what Lien posted regarding cosplay, and that is honestly very irrelevant to the discussion because, lets face it, people are camera whores now a days thanks to instigram and its common sense to ask permission anyway at a con, so its kind of a moot point.

If you really want a solution, it is education though. That is where the debate should be, and that is who should be in it too, the educators and people with knowledge on the subject, who are not pushing forth questionable proclamations and sweeping generalizations on everything. And by education, I mean actually teaching women and men how to be game programmers. Especially women, see, because they are still under-represented in the gaming industry.

This to me is the smartest article on the subject, but it was overshadowed by bullshit like this at the same conference that year.

The conversation is on the wrong topic all together, because the booth babes, or paid dancing patrons, or any of that crap is not important in the least. It's a fix that can be changed without forcing the change really easily if developers, publishers, journalists and the community gets off their lazy asses and focuses on the bigger picture, instead of internet skirmishes over nothing that only twenty people will read.

Well, you made me say more than I wanted to, I guess kudos for pointing out my own pointlessness in replying earlier at least.

 

[UrbanMasque]

Oh look, people arguing stuff they know so little about.

No offense guys, we know gratuitous sex is terrible, and we know the culture at large is stupid. Arguing it on here doesn't change a damn thing.

Sharing ideas through a spirited debate is never a negative, links. Popular opinion is what determines history. Want to make a change, start by changing popular opninion through forum discussions. So there... take that.

Education... What do we need to be educated about?

 

[GRColin]

I can appreciate your reply links and can't say I don't agree with most of what you said. I do surprisingly. I didn't read all the replies in this thread but had to say something based solely on how condescending you came across which I just felt was really rude and unnecessary. Urban, Lien and everyone else were simply discussing a topic and bringing some life into these forums. Because it didn't live up to your standard in terms of what should be discussed is no reason to say it shouldn't even be argued about.
Thanks for being a sport though and explaining why you said you did.

 

[LinksOcarina]

Oh look, people arguing stuff they know so little about.

No offense guys, we know gratuitous sex is terrible, and we know the culture at large is stupid. Arguing it on here doesn't change a damn thing.

Sharing ideas through a spirited debate is never a negative, links. Popular opinion is what determines history. Want to make a change, start by changing popular opinion through forum discussions. So there... take that.

Education... What do we need to be educated about?

I did for two and a half years, and I got nothing but death threats and whiny people calling me racist and sexist in fan mail.

I'm done trying to help honestly. I felt drained and useless after BT shut down because of it for a while, so I guess I am not out of that cynical rut yet. Its tough being logical when its not a nice selling point, but I already posted above, take it for what you will.

 

[Green_Lantern]

Man, you guys are all getting your panties all twisted.

 

[C_nate]

My panties are twist free, but that's mainly due to the fact that I'm free balling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=469KLGY6WCQ

 

[Master_Craig]

Everyone makes good points on this thread and it's opened my eyes quite a bit, I have to admit though I think Links may make the best point.

 

[Wes]

There is a fast food chain called Wendy's. Just about every commercial they did that I can remember was done by the owner Dave Thomas. He passed away and his daughter took over and started doing the commercials. She looks like this:

Then out of nowhere, they started doing commercials with another redhead that took her place. She looks like this:

Why do you think they did that?

Also they changed the slogan to "Now That's Better".

 

[Lien]

There is a fast food chain called Wendy's. Just about every commercial they did that I can remember was done by the owner Dave Thomas. He passed away and his daughter took over and started doing the commercials. She looks like this:

Then out of nowhere, they started doing commercials with another redhead that took her place. She looks like this:

Why do you think they did that?

Also they changed the slogan to "Now That's Better".

Hahahahaha

But links... you are puzzling me. Everything you said are things that i pointed out in the past and recently. The lack of women employees in the gaming industry is a big concern (even with the rising number these past years it's still lacking) while the boy club mentality needs to be dismantled to help improve this is a good way to start (like the recent death/rape threats thrown to female developers). However... What me, Urban, Craig and even Madster (not GL though, he can suck eggs) talked about here is still worthy of discussion and time. Not because it is right or wrong, but because it represent the popular opinion. Your stance needs to be chalenged even by outright idiots to see if it can hold on its legs. And quite frankly dismissing the popular opinion to enforce your argument, be it fact or not, can greatly undermine your effort in the long run. Trying to change it is more moot of an effort then claiming it's common sense not to harass women.

And by the way, i am aware of both articles you linked. How one had more views and awareness does not undermine the other. Truth is truth no matter the downvotes. Don't distance yourself from the community you want to change cause you hate the popular opinion. You should be doing things you know it's good not for the reward but because it's the right thing to do.

Also link? I was never aware you were harass privately over the years. I am being serious here. I was too but GR changed a lot these couple of years. I was open to staffers and moderator over this and they helped me or supported me over the years. Some even asked me for advice on how to handle tough decisions, not all of them follow my advice to the letter but they listened. I still get insulted and threaten via PM for my front page comments but it doesn't bother me so much now that the GR mods and staff are doing more effort to protect me. If you still feel unsafe to say your opinion around here, that's a big concern for me and everyone on GR :? Let them help you so they can help us make this safe for everyone.

 

[MattAY]

Man, you guys are all getting your panties all twisted.

 

[Lien]

Man, you guys are all getting your panties all twisted.

 

[madster111]

So who feels like condensing each post in this thread down to below 100 words?

 

[De-Ting]

So who feels like condensing each post in this thread down to below 100 words?

I love you. You love me. We're best friends like friends should be. With a great big hug, and a kiss from me to you, won't you say you love me too?

 

[LinksOcarina]

Hahahahaha

But links... you are puzzling me. Everything you said are things that i pointed out in the past and recently. The lack of women employees in the gaming industry is a big concern (even with the rising number these past years it's still lacking) while the boy club mentality needs to be dismantled to help improve this is a good way to start (like the recent death/rape threats thrown to female developers). However... What me, Urban, Craig and even Madster (not GL though, he can suck eggs) talked about here is still worthy of discussion and time. Not because it is right or wrong, but because it represent the popular opinion. Your stance needs to be chalenged even by outright idiots to see if it can hold on its legs. And quite frankly dismissing the popular opinion to enforce your argument, be it fact or not, can greatly undermine your effort in the long run. Trying to change it is more moot of an effort then claiming it's common sense not to harass women.

And by the way, i am aware of both articles you linked. How one had more views and awareness does not undermine the other. Truth is truth no matter the downvotes. Don't distance yourself from the community you want to change cause you hate the popular opinion. You should be doing things you know it's good not for the reward but because it's the right thing to do.

Also link? I was never aware you were harass privately over the years. I am being serious here. I was too but GR changed a lot these couple of years. I was open to staffers and moderator over this and they helped me or supported me over the years. Some even asked me for advice on how to handle tough decisions, not all of them follow my advice to the letter but they listened. I still get insulted and threaten via PM for my front page comments but it doesn't bother me so much now that the GR mods and staff are doing more effort to protect me. If you still feel unsafe to say your opinion around here, that's a big concern for me and everyone on GR :? Let them help you so they can help us make this safe for everyone.

I want to point out there is no abuse here, it was when I was writing for BT and pretty much pushing the same ideas and discussions I normally do.

I should also point out that the popular opinion is often problematic in the end because of its superficiality. In the case for booth babes, what does it change? On the surface, only the visual of the companies image, not the company itself. That is why I dismiss it.

As for changing the community, people in charge need to lead it. Very few of them are doing so in a way that actually helps. I see tons of phony activism going on in gaming media, out on Forbes, IGN, GayGamer, Polygon, RPC, and almost all of it is focusing on the superficiality of the situation over ideas and calls for deeper change. They are fanning flames instead of putting out fires.

 

[Lien]

I tend to worry over people who start to say there are "Phony" activism out there. Tends to give them a sense of superiority over subjects that doesn't concern them. The straight white guy telling the black woman what's offensive to her race and gender and what's not tends to make him a more of a hypocrite then a hero of the people. And judging entire activist movement idiotic as a whole can completely dismiss constructive argument that can be taken out of it. But i digress...

I agree with you on the booth babe stance. Banning them is just treating the symptom but not the disease while dismissing any potential discussion on the matter. And yes, people in charge really needs to lead the flock in a different direction instead of hoping the flock will change the destination by themselves eventually. Fanboys aren't known for being rational on their own.
But i don't agree with you in saying that addressing the superficial problems is making things worst. For me, doing so is a reminder of the problems at hand by pointing out the outcomes while asking people to look into the core. Sure, pointing out that Soul Calibur's Ivy outfit is idiotic won't stop the exploitation of woman but it can make people in charge of making a change to think twice in wither or not they should continue doing this odd tradition, and maybe even ask themselves why people even do this. Heck, almost all the talk panels in this years GDC 2014 was all about that even poking fun at people claiming discussion like that is ridiculous.

But i guess that's where the line is drawn. As much as i hate this saying, let's agree to disagree. Least we are both on the same side from what i can tell.

 

[WickedLiquid]

If sex doesn't sell then someone explain to me how the fuck Channing Tatum got to play Gambit?

Boom. Mind blown. I'm out.

 

[Lien]

God darn it, wicked! I only got so little space in my sig...

 

[UrbanMasque]

If sex doesn't sell then someone explain to me how the fuck Channing Tatum got to play Gambit?

I was genuinely upset by this as well.

 

[Longo_2_guns]

I like Channing Tatum...